Trainers and mentors. Do you follow one or many? - Barnmice Equestrian Social Community2024-03-29T07:47:40Zhttp://www.barnmice.com/forum/topics/trainers-and-mentors-do-you?feed=yes&xn_auth=noMy horse has done all that st…tag:www.barnmice.com,2009-11-21:1773158:Comment:1733902009-11-21T03:30:52.760ZJennifer Lammhttp://www.barnmice.com/profile/JenniferLamm
My horse has done all that stuff, charge, bite..... but he doesn't do that to me anymore.. he would do it to anyone new though that he didn't know.... He's been laid down too. :) done that already... not me, but Steve.. Steve laid him down when he was very very young. he tried it again a few weeks ago and it was not a pretty site.<br />
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maybe Oliver just is hopeless.... ugh.
My horse has done all that stuff, charge, bite..... but he doesn't do that to me anymore.. he would do it to anyone new though that he didn't know.... He's been laid down too. :) done that already... not me, but Steve.. Steve laid him down when he was very very young. he tried it again a few weeks ago and it was not a pretty site.<br />
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maybe Oliver just is hopeless.... ugh. Hi again, I was friends with…tag:www.barnmice.com,2009-11-20:1773158:Comment:1732542009-11-20T19:10:54.816ZShirleyhttp://www.barnmice.com/profile/Shirley
Hi again, I was friends with the horse that had been abused. Not the spoiled - home bred horse.<br />
The big thing that I saw them use (after all traditional methods had been tried) was the laying down method. similar to what was in the movie "The Horse Whisperer". It is only used in extreme cases by respectable trainers (again my opinion) . I think it used to be used often when 'breaking' horses was the common way of 'bringing a horse around' to see things mans way. Many horses got hurt physically.…
Hi again, I was friends with the horse that had been abused. Not the spoiled - home bred horse.<br />
The big thing that I saw them use (after all traditional methods had been tried) was the laying down method. similar to what was in the movie "The Horse Whisperer". It is only used in extreme cases by respectable trainers (again my opinion) . I think it used to be used often when 'breaking' horses was the common way of 'bringing a horse around' to see things mans way. Many horses got hurt physically. Some just died inside and lost all their spirit. Desperate means for desperate situations ...it was worth trying before giving up on the horse. This horse was totally disrespectful , he would charge, bite, more then naughty...dangerous.<br />
The laying down method is not something you need to do (cause you are getting progress with taming methods) nor would ever want to do nor could you do it. I don't know what all is entailed cause I could not watch for long. They get the horse down by taking their legs from under them till they fall and then they sack them out and don't let them up until the horse gives up fighting them. They did this to this mean horse twice and he still came up with attitude.. I did not see them work with him again. I don't know what the owners did with him. Prior to this extreme attempt they worked with this horse five days a week for at least two months with no progress. I was not around when he got worked with. Mean or not I have a terrible time watching a horse be forced into anything. They have to be polite enough to live in society. What Parelli or Chris would or could do I don't know.<br />
I'm not there but it sounds like you are making steps forward each day you work with Oliver so you are probably on the right path for now.<br />
Move on horsewoman! Hey Shirley.. I got confused…tag:www.barnmice.com,2009-11-20:1773158:Comment:1732262009-11-20T17:42:57.081ZJennifer Lammhttp://www.barnmice.com/profile/JenniferLamm
Hey Shirley.. I got confused in your post. did you end up befriending the orphan or the other horse.... would you mind going into just one story of how the orphan horse was different and what the trainer did to try and work with him?<br />
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I am pretty careful. I don't push Oliver... I mean lets be real, I am not a trainer.... but I am his handler. That is how I look at it. Every day that we can try something new, we are advancing in our relationship. He and I are green and green. So why get black…
Hey Shirley.. I got confused in your post. did you end up befriending the orphan or the other horse.... would you mind going into just one story of how the orphan horse was different and what the trainer did to try and work with him?<br />
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I am pretty careful. I don't push Oliver... I mean lets be real, I am not a trainer.... but I am his handler. That is how I look at it. Every day that we can try something new, we are advancing in our relationship. He and I are green and green. So why get black and blue.<br />
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When I learned last week how to get a horse motivated to work with you because of release of endorphins, I was hooked... that's all I'm gonna say.... go Chris!!<br />
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I like Chris teaching me to not be a predator in his eyes and to soften.... but Oliver is not respectful of people at all and maybe he's spoiled, I don't really know..... all I know is, he is getting better for me..... and I am not afraid of him anymore. For today, that is all I can do to even take the next step.<br />
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Oliver is an orphaned mustang. And he's 4... sum all that up and I'm just lucky to be here to tell the tale.... If I knew more I might give up.<br />
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And I can agree with Laura in that I have a book from every trainer and I've read and read or watched and watched for the one sentence or segment from whomever it is that gets me back outside with the horses... so I can take the next step. You are exactly right ...in m…tag:www.barnmice.com,2009-11-20:1773158:Comment:1732242009-11-20T16:24:37.293ZShirleyhttp://www.barnmice.com/profile/Shirley
You are exactly right ...in my opinion anyway! I am one of those that has not yet found a way to get to any 'real time' clinics with my horse. I have done some auditing but even that is not the same.<br />
One of the things Parelli's did that I think is the next best thing is there DVD set on Horse Behavior. They did the best they could to show instances of certain actions and reactions, pointing out lots of little things that are big things. A person that has spent years with horses actually paying…
You are exactly right ...in my opinion anyway! I am one of those that has not yet found a way to get to any 'real time' clinics with my horse. I have done some auditing but even that is not the same.<br />
One of the things Parelli's did that I think is the next best thing is there DVD set on Horse Behavior. They did the best they could to show instances of certain actions and reactions, pointing out lots of little things that are big things. A person that has spent years with horses actually paying attention to a horses language probably would know most of this stuff but for those that are trying to do a speed course of catching up as best you can this is a very good learning tool. I can only speak on his stuff when it comes to the deeper stuff cause after initial investments with several trainers I got the deeper training info from Parelli's. But I still learn from anyone I can.<br />
Keep Horsen Around! When I'm doing the program co…tag:www.barnmice.com,2009-11-15:1773158:Comment:1707952009-11-15T18:27:48.730ZShirleyhttp://www.barnmice.com/profile/Shirley
When I'm doing the program consciously, we also work on a different thing each day or at least in a sequence of growth as each skill is learned..<br />
It sounds to me like you have found the perfect thing for you and Oliver to progress. I am sure he would not fall into the ordinary situations. Parelli does have some advanced things he does for extreme problems but it's not recommended for beginner trainers.<br />
I have looked at the videos on State-line, I viewed a couple briefly. I just could not…
When I'm doing the program consciously, we also work on a different thing each day or at least in a sequence of growth as each skill is learned..<br />
It sounds to me like you have found the perfect thing for you and Oliver to progress. I am sure he would not fall into the ordinary situations. Parelli does have some advanced things he does for extreme problems but it's not recommended for beginner trainers.<br />
I have looked at the videos on State-line, I viewed a couple briefly. I just could not remember which company sponsored him to go back and look at more. Now, hopefully I can remember which web-site.. I do have three of his DVDs' that I purchased on EBay after meeting Anne Gage who is one of his upper level trainers in Canada..<br />
I have only once seen a horse that might be of the same nature as Oliver. He was at my training barn where I boarded for three years and he was very good. This trainer was good & helped a lot of horses. He did not use Parelli or Chris or really anyone else as a modern well known mentor. He'd gone to college to learn to train & run an equine business but he already had a lot under his hat cause he'd calmed horses for people since he was just a kid. and had a lot of experience. Anyway we got in ONE horse that he told me to stay away from (I had alot of liberty there to be around the horses to groom or whatever little things like that~~Not ride or take outside). This horse was aggressive and they tried all kinds of advanced training methods with him. He'd been orphan raised and just had no respect or fear of people. I saw them try techniques with this horse that I never saw with any other horses we'd gotten but he was a special case. He'd been brought to our barn as a last effort to basically save this horse as far as ever being ridable. In three and a half years I only saw two extreme horses that were not helped at this barn. This one had literally been spoiled rotten and the other had been abused to the point of psycho in certain situations where something would get triggered in his brain and he'd turn into another horse..a very dangerous horse in those moments. The second is 'My Fred -that I got very attached to and him to me. He never freaked when I was with him but that's a long story of much emotion for me. I'm just glad we had each other for the short time that we did...a fairy-tale relationship of two unlike-lies that bonded and helped each other for a short time.<br />
Boy, did I get off the track. Obviously your Oliver is not unfix-able as your friend/trainer has been able to do much with him so keep on building yourself till you are the horsewoman that Oliver needs. And be careful. If I'm remembering right you had also determined that Oliver has some sort of issue in his pole or something that he is in some pain and complicated. That's Oliver right?<br />
You keep doing what is working for you and Oliver. As time allows I will look at some more of Chris' stuff and continue to work Parelli in the meantime as that is working for Cash and I. When I decided to get a horse again at 53, I never dreamed to have this good of a relationship with my horse. Yet, I still have anxiety issues with riding. But I think Cash and I were meant to be if such things actually do occur and in the past couple years of my life, I have come to believe that God (spiritual energy) works in mysterious ways.<br />
We'll be in touch while we both work our steps for our horsemanship. We can still encourage each other and share what is or is not working for us. K?~~~~~Shirl Hello. :) Fiona helped with a…tag:www.barnmice.com,2009-11-15:1773158:Comment:1707882009-11-15T16:52:12.714ZJennifer Lammhttp://www.barnmice.com/profile/JenniferLamm
Hello. :) Fiona helped with answering about Statelinetack.com and the Video Gallery. I am sure that Chris gets paid by someone as he deserves to, but it isn't me....<br />
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The Yo Yo game, and some things that even Chris Cox and Clinton Anderson suggest, are exact opposite of Mr. Irwins teachings in this one simple thing that I have learned, and I am only on about the 20th segment. See, when you bash the horse in the head with the clip, his head is inverted and he is releasing adrenaline. Chris is…
Hello. :) Fiona helped with answering about Statelinetack.com and the Video Gallery. I am sure that Chris gets paid by someone as he deserves to, but it isn't me....<br />
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The Yo Yo game, and some things that even Chris Cox and Clinton Anderson suggest, are exact opposite of Mr. Irwins teachings in this one simple thing that I have learned, and I am only on about the 20th segment. See, when you bash the horse in the head with the clip, his head is inverted and he is releasing adrenaline. Chris is teaching me how to get Oliver to release endorphins. I think his chip is so big on his shoulder, the kid is carrying around so much crap, that for as long as it takes I feel like he needs to chill out. I have to tell you that yesterday, he was yawning so much and licking and chewing so much that it was actually distressful.... he is such a spaz... he has so much pent up, that he wouldn't stop, his eyes were rolling in the back of his head... ..... but it was good. Few hours later he was all punky again so I had to practice more. I want to ask Fiona.... cuz this is something that I am kind of confused on and something I work on and why Chris really is saving my life. The yo yo game would get me killed..... if you ever meet my horse, who is going on 16 hands, 4 years old and born of a wild stallion and the alpha mare in the herd, don't elevate his head. Do whatever you can for your own safety to get him to chill and relax and lower his head.... and lick... I feel like Chris is helping me gentle my mustang.... and both of us need that, or I won't be able to deal with him. anyway, for the first time, since I learned this, I am making it a point to not have a face to face with Oliver.... I am trying, get this, just to get him to turn his side to me, not block me with the head, and not manage me in the least... and it isn't that easy.... and not letting him come forward, but also, not touching him... not pushing him away, but blocking him. eventually, if I can get there... I am confused about when to block and when to draw... he licks and chews and lowers his head..... then I can get to his side, this was a big deal, I know it sounds so stupid, but he is all about his front side, like he'd head butt you before he'd turn to kick.... now, the question.... I'm on his side, and rubbing his girth, and getting his head to come in, he still has attitude, I'm betting it's me now that I think of it.... you know what? I know where it is in the video if I think about it.. see, he's turning in and bending his head to my hand, but not nicely yet, kinda grumpy still. He is totally reacting to me and I'm thinking I'm doing it right, but I bet he's sensing apprehension of me being that close, doing something different.....<br />
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here is a visual for you shirley. One time, my friend and I.... we were measuring Oliver to see how tall he was. I was with him and she was on his side, going hand over hand..... he was patient for awhile, and then after she lost count and tried over, out of the blue, he turned into her, knocked her into a summer sault and jumped over her...... and ran off..... now, let me say... never in my life had I ever seen that, didn't even know it could happen, and it really scared me..... because up to that point, Oliver and I were very close in grooming, at liberty. I was kind of traumatized..... so to be close to him, rubbing his girth and asking him to give me his head, I must be subconsiously remembering that..... cuz he hasn't ever done it to me, but it sure scared the crap out of me when he did it to her. I don't think my relationship with Oliver is going to ever be about control. There is no controlling him... he is gonna be more like asking him to submit.... be soft, give it up, let it go, easy, easy, easy and lots of guidance. Every move that Chris teaches, is to get him to relax, like John Lyons does, who is a genius, and I need that with my horse.... I just can feel for the first time that this is what I need. Oh, and when you are working with a 1200 pound mustang, and you have no fricken idea what you are doing, I honestly believe you need like a step by step direction handbook of how not to piss him off..... how not to get killed by this thing that lives in your back yard. this is my life Shirley, LOL.... I rescued an orphan colt mustang with a left brain personality, and a hard stiff chip on his shoulder....<br />
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I actually put up 2 videos of Oliver and I, but video taping myself and working with him is most likely not going to be something I can do... and I'm not ready to work with him with other people around.... I need more of his attention... it's a gonna come though.. I'll do alot of videos. I just bought a camera. My daughter can film us. Right now though, to be honest, Oliver lets me know when I'm screwing up.. he is pretty patient but when I'm not getting what I want, I quit.... now, some would say that is wrong, but with a sensitive creature that gets escalated, I just back off of him and let him process and calm down.... because once he gets jacked up, you don't want to be in the corral with him....<br />
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I hardley ever see elevated emotions from him, but that's because only my trainer and I work with him.... I'm not trying to make him out to be a beast, but he really needs to be "handled" every day..... he is definitey a challenging horse. In the wrong hands, like if you tried a yo yo game with him, or tried to roundpen him, or back him up with a handy stick, he'd run you down. Or try to.... I don't recommend anyone going in his pen, LOL.... I think it is a fundamentally…tag:www.barnmice.com,2009-11-15:1773158:Comment:1707382009-11-15T10:10:52.538ZFiona Hillhttp://www.barnmice.com/profile/FionaHill
I think it is a fundamentally different philosophy as you say. At the end of the day, 'solutions' are so dependent on what else is going on that it is not possible to know all the answers. What many trainers fail to do, however (and I'm not naming any names) is show you how to tell the difference between fear and aggression, or stubbornness. Either they don't know or they just seem to know through their own experience but they don't (or can't) articulate what it is about the horse that is…
I think it is a fundamentally different philosophy as you say. At the end of the day, 'solutions' are so dependent on what else is going on that it is not possible to know all the answers. What many trainers fail to do, however (and I'm not naming any names) is show you how to tell the difference between fear and aggression, or stubbornness. Either they don't know or they just seem to know through their own experience but they don't (or can't) articulate what it is about the horse that is telling them this. What I like about Chris is that he explains equine body language and demonstrates cause and effect of our own body language so clearly that it is indisputable (unless you don't want to accept what you see!). So we begin to learn to really read what we are seeing, rather than delude ourselves that all is wonderful and fluffy!<br />
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I don't believe you can get the full scope of anyones' teaching without seeing them in person or actually studying with them. As you rightly say Chris has to make a living like the rest of us! The free videos are on a website called Stateline Tack I believe but I don't know the details, you'd have to look at his website.<br />
Yes Chris does travel a lot in both Canada, the US and more recently Europe. His website gives details of his travel itinerary and clinics although next year's stuff is not up there yet. It's well worth going to see what it's all about - perhaps the DVDs will make more sense once you've seen him 'in the flesh' so to speak! :-)<br />
Yes Anne Gage is one of Chris's Gold level trainers - she also introduced me to Barn Mice! She should get commission or something! :-) I just realized when you said…tag:www.barnmice.com,2009-11-14:1773158:Comment:1705672009-11-14T17:04:27.523ZShirleyhttp://www.barnmice.com/profile/Shirley
I just realized when you said charge for lessons, you mean sending in your video so Chris can critique what you are doing....Okay but I still wonder about the rest.
I just realized when you said charge for lessons, you mean sending in your video so Chris can critique what you are doing....Okay but I still wonder about the rest. Okay then, I am convinced tha…tag:www.barnmice.com,2009-11-14:1773158:Comment:1705662009-11-14T17:02:05.225ZShirleyhttp://www.barnmice.com/profile/Shirley
Okay then, I am convinced that I must look closer to see the differences. Right now I'm thinking there is an initial difference in philosophy but after that many of the techniques are very similar. But, similar with different energy could be like night and day. Even when viewing some of the Parelli information they offer different solutions for the very same horse behavior but the behavior is coming from a different source of energy...like is it fear or aggression?<br />
Jenn is talking about 'free'…
Okay then, I am convinced that I must look closer to see the differences. Right now I'm thinking there is an initial difference in philosophy but after that many of the techniques are very similar. But, similar with different energy could be like night and day. Even when viewing some of the Parelli information they offer different solutions for the very same horse behavior but the behavior is coming from a different source of energy...like is it fear or aggression?<br />
Jenn is talking about 'free' videos. Are those on his web-site too? I know one of the magazine .com websites offer free video clips from him but it appears you don't get the full scope of his teaching without purchasing some information. Right? Like I said earlier, they do all have to make a living.<br />
Does Chris ever come to the US to do seminars/clinics? I don't have a trailer but I'd love to go as an observer.<br />
I met a really great lady at a gathering I attended that is a high level instructor from Chris Irwin and she lives in Canada too. I think she still travels with Chris some. Her name is Anne Gage and she is the one that introduced me to BarnMice. That was a great gift in itself. You can look her up by name and see if she is in your area. She will come to do US clinics if you can get a minimum amount of people together to attend. I don't remember what she charges or how many she needs to make her trip worth while. I am sad to say I don't know enough people in my area interested in any form of natural techniques. I'm sure they must be out there but I'm not bumping into them. Maybe cause the only place I've been going lately is in front of the comp and to my barn to be with Cash. I think I need to keep spreading my wings, it's an interesting world out there with great people to find. BUT I LIKE HORSES COMPANY!!!!<br />
Anyone listening from Michigan? Hi Shirley
I have no axe to…tag:www.barnmice.com,2009-11-14:1773158:Comment:1705422009-11-14T14:57:01.812ZFiona Hillhttp://www.barnmice.com/profile/FionaHill
Hi Shirley<br />
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I have no axe to grind with the Parellis or anyone else for that matter. I think the 'yo yo' game is a perfect example of why Chris Irwin and Parelli's methods don't go together. The yo yo game (as I understand it) requires you to stand in front of the horse and put pushing energy directly into its head via the rope in order to make it back up. This is in direct opposition to Chris's teachings, which require you to only use blocking or drawing energy to the head, telling the head…
Hi Shirley<br />
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I have no axe to grind with the Parellis or anyone else for that matter. I think the 'yo yo' game is a perfect example of why Chris Irwin and Parelli's methods don't go together. The yo yo game (as I understand it) requires you to stand in front of the horse and put pushing energy directly into its head via the rope in order to make it back up. This is in direct opposition to Chris's teachings, which require you to only use blocking or drawing energy to the head, telling the head where not to go, while you direct pushing energy to the body only.<br />
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I know what you are saying about Chris' DVDs showing only calm horses. The most recent one that Jenn mentions, Barn Manners, does show some more challenging situations. Chris would I'm sure also add however that a lot of horses he works with don't react aggressively to him for very long because he is so aware of his body language that he doesn't cause them to charge and so on. He doesn't offer 'techniques' as such as the main point of the stuff he does is about diagnosing what's going on between the horse and the human before rushing in to 'fix' the horse.<br />
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I'm not sure about the cost of the video lessons - its all on Chris's website - I think you can choose how many to buy.<br />
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Hope this helps.