Barnmice Equestrian Social Community

The video community for horse people everywhere

Information

Science Of Motion

Jean Luc Cornille group discussions on anything "horse"...dressage,jumpers, Science Of Motion in action.

Website: http://www.scienceofmotion.com
Members: 46
Latest Activity: Aug 26

Horse Forum

Helyn Marie Cornille

The Alternative A New Training Philosophy Jean Luc Cornille 7 Replies

For one hour you have driven your horse onto the ground picking up his shoulders with your arms. Driving back home, your shoulders are screaming and your back is in agony. A thought is pounding in yo…

Tagged: cornille, luc, jean, Training

Started by Helyn Marie Cornille. Last reply by Helyn Marie Cornille May 26.

Helyn Marie Cornille

Forward Movement 1 Reply

Forward movement should not be understood as how much the horse’s body is moving forward but instead as how well the thrust generated by the hind legs is transmitted forward through the horse’s body.…

Tagged: movement, chazot, forward, cornille, luc

Started by Helyn Marie Cornille. Last reply by Jackie Cochran Apr 13.

Helyn Marie Cornille

Stretching and Relaxation Myths and Reality by Jean Luc Cornille

After contraction comes relaxation. Both aspects of muscular work create movements. The quality of the movement is not proportional to the relaxation, but the intensity and timing of both the contrac…

Started by Helyn Marie Cornille Mar 23.

Helyn Marie Cornille

Louis 5 Replies

Pavlov’s reflex conditioning remains a fundamental principle of equine education, but over and over horses demonstrate the faculty to process through far more sophisticated mental connections.   Re…

Tagged: luc, cornille, jean, training, hand

Started by Helyn Marie Cornille. Last reply by Margaret Kunz Mar 19.

Comment Wall

Comment

You need to be a member of Science Of Motion to add comments!

Helyn Marie Cornille Comment by Helyn Marie Cornille on May 31, 2010 at 11:30am
Some Chazot antics... http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/aBTqIv5NyML-poGV46rNVw?feat=directlink
Deborah Imershein Comment by Deborah Imershein on February 4, 2010 at 10:36pm
Hi, Jackie. I certainly agree that there are all sorts of people claiming to know what classical dressage is and say they are applying it. In fact, one will find that there was inconsistency in the opinions and training methods of those who rode in the "classical" period. There was also change in the beliefs and therefore the riding style of particular trainers (it was Baucher, I believe, who was the most notable for this) during their lifetime. So anyone who wants to say that they are following "classical" dressage ought to realize that. Even if we agree on a definition of what classical dressage is, I think it is important to note that some classical riders had the talent to work with the physiology of the horse and the horse's natural movement, but they did not have the benefit of the scientific knowledge that Jean Luc has, and does, rigorously study and apply. So, much of what is written in the old texts is not replicable. I suggest also that any system, no matter how good its rationale overall, that does not allow for the horse's individuality, especially in conformation, is potentially as harmful as it is useful.

Not only are most of the people calling themselves dressage riders ignorant of what science tells us about the horse's body (much less applying it), it is quite true that most horses are pushed into a frame and that training is rushed because it is focused on "results" rather than a true and pleasurable partnership. This is so much the norm that most people do not realize that is what they are doing.

The way to stop these abuses is to show people a better way. That is what Jean Luc is trying to do. Hopefully, by raising the money to document Manchester's recovery and by the interest of people like you who care about the welfare of the horse, the word will spread.
Helyn Marie Cornille Comment by Helyn Marie Cornille on February 4, 2010 at 8:22pm
“It should be borne in mind that the weight of the rider will rise two- or three-fold during locomotion.” (Jose Morales) The Spanish scientist goes on to explain that increased load will require more propulsive energy of the hind legs during the propulsive phase. Of even greater influence are the effects of the rider’s movements. When the military Cavalry invented the rising trot, it was to allow the riders to endure long distances. It was not to enhance the horse’s performances. The up and down movements of the riders are in fact disturbing for the horse. Warming up the horse at the rising trot might be useful for the horse simply because the horse would be even more disturbed by a rider bouncing on the saddle. By contrast, a ballet dancer does not warm up running fast around the studio doing large movements. Instead, each muscle is progressively challenged. The Russian ballet dancer Natalia Makarova used to say, referring to her warm up, ”My body is imperfect and each day, my trainer realigns my body properly.” Frankly, if Natalia’s body was imperfect, mine is a disaster. The science of motion approach the horses’ warm up as well as physical education at the same level of precision and sophistication. Such level of precise action demands to be seat on the saddle. The sum of the horses’ body movements are then absorbed and reduced by the supple resistance of the rider’s back muscles. Once the motion of the rider’s spine is adjusted to the very limited range of motion of the horse’s vertebral column, nuances in muscle tone became the “dialogue” that lead the horse’s brain to the appropriated coordination of the horse’s vertebral column mechanism. Jean Luc Cornille
Jackie Cochran Comment by Jackie Cochran on February 4, 2010 at 9:45am
I write the following with trepidation, fearing abuse from dressage riders who literally worship the religion of their interpretation of "classical dressage". I apologize to all dressage riders and trainers who train properly and gradually if you feel insulted for some reason for what I say.

What I see is that the current dressage paradigm RUSHES the horse's physical development. It tries to combine fine physical control with the physical development of the horse from the beginning of training. When the rider insists that the horse attain and hold physical stances for which the horse just does not have the muscular strength or endurance, it causes resistances which become worse, and muscle strains, joint strains, etc.. Not only that, but often the horse has NO relief from the rider's seat, again from the beginning of training. This means that you have problems in the spine which complicate matters immensely.

If people would train future dressage horses in the Forward Riding method or the Ft. Riley method a lot of these problems could be avoided. Keeping the weight of the rider forward in the saddle, over the strongest part of the back, enables the horse to slowly build up muscle further down the spine BEFORE the rider's weight moves further back. Allowing the horlse to choose its own head/neck carraige enables it to learn how best to use its own body. The horse cannot learn this if its movement is constrained before its muscles are strong enough to cope with the restraint. Eventually (around two years by the Ft. Riley method) the horse develops enough physical strength, endurance and agility to move into collected work without risking the horse's soundness. The horse's back knows how to cope with the rider's weight, and the loin and neck muscles are strong enough to begin the more demanding work. The horse is READY for this advanced work.
Helyn Marie Cornille Comment by Helyn Marie Cornille on February 4, 2010 at 8:47am
Your story highlights another problem. Horses should compete within the specialty that fit their talent and not the specialty chosen by their rider. The horse you are referring to should never have been an endurance horse. Allure had a good life because Deborah understood that there is such a thing that functionally sounds. One, the horse needs to be ridden properly in order to stay sound. Two, there are limitations. For instance Allure was capable to show in dressage at first and second level. It would have been irresponsible to put him at third level because there are many medium and extended trots at this level and Allure was not capable to execute these moves without put his soundness at risk.
Jean Luc
Science Of Motion
www.scienceofmotion.com
Deborah Imershein Comment by Deborah Imershein on February 3, 2010 at 10:26pm
Susie, that is so very sad and how unfair for that poor horse.
I hope that the combined power of the videos and the ability of the word to spread over the Internet will finally provide the wide exposure Jean Luc's work—and all horses—deserve. To have such kind and noble animals suffer because we want to shape them to convention rather than honor their individual conformation and capabilities with true and educated partnership is cruel and uncivilized. I realize it isn't intended that way, but the first step is to be willing to wake up then learn then apply. If horses could somehow do to us what is done to them, they'd lock us up! Then again, they wouldn't, which is what makes all this even sadder.
SUSIE-SOLOMON-MABE Comment by SUSIE-SOLOMON-MABE on February 3, 2010 at 7:29pm
I have seen this type of suspensory dropping, on an arabian gelding who was used for ENDURANCE over the worst terrain one could ever imagine.
His pasterns were totally horizontal at the walk and he wore bandages to help keep his poor pasterns from bleeding.
Because of this he had changed his center of gravity into this hill- and was ever so back humpy, so he could get his hind legs down and up so fast and keep his weight on his back not on his haunches. He was in pain from every part of his verterbrea and his mind was always unhappy.
I was his stall care given back then and would put 4 bags of shavings in his stall every other day so he could lay down and feel for a while, that he did not have to cope with pain.
As he deteriated- his owners left him- they just stopped coming to the barn as was the way folks did it back then and then stopped paying board and answering our calls.
One day when the vet was there for another horse, he looked at this sad little arab and did the right thing- he let him go and gave him a a way to stop being in pain.
Helyn Marie Cornille Comment by Helyn Marie Cornille on February 3, 2010 at 7:14pm
Thinking outside the box

Allure’s problem was a severe suspensory desmitis. The hind legs’ pasterns were literally parallel to the ground. As often is the case, the problem created straight hocks, or perhaps a naturally straight hock conformation engendered the suspensory issue. At that time, the horse was in training with a Grand Prix rider. In fact, the rider was at one time on the Olympic team. Once again the rider’s skill was not in question. It was the system that failed the horse. The rider attempted to help the horse by conforming the horse to the system, starting with greater engagement of the hid legs.

That was the worse thing to do for this horse. Placing the hind leg more forward under the body actually accentuated the down translation of the fetlock. The fetlock was hitting the ground and so inducing pain at every stride. Allure was a very kind horse. He did not revolt as he could, and perhaps should have. Instead, the horse surrendered to the rider’s demands, the result of which was that he contracted his whole body, including his back, in anticipation of pain. Of course he resisted forward movement, and of course traditional thinking decided that the horse was lazy.

The solution lay in the realization that the horse could not mechanically engage the hind legs deeper. In fact, considering the level of performance that was expected from the horse, the engagement of the hind legs was sufficient. With a little more knowledge of the equine physiology, the rider would have known that the greatest amount of upward propulsive force, which is the dynamic of balance control, is created by the forelegs and not by the hind legs. The forelegs produce 57% of the upward propulsive forces created in motion while the hind legs produce only 43%.

The re-education that allowed the horse to function soundly and happily in subsequent years was based on adapting the training to the horse’s physiology instead of fitting the horse’s morphology to the system’s methodology. Rather than asking greater engagement of the horse’s hind legs, the working hypothesis proposed to teach him a more efficient way to engage the hind legs as much, but no more than, he was comfortable with. This was achieved by enhancing his vertebral column mechanism and consequently, the capacity of the pelvis to oscillate dorso-ventrally.

With adherence to conventional protocols (thinking in the box) and compressing the horse between greater engagement of the hind legs and a low neck posture, the system hampered all chances for the horse to deal with his problem. Each step wherein the horse was driven forward onto the bit was a step toward breakdown. Speed, weight on the bit, and low neck posture were three conditions that contributed to the stiffening of the back muscles. Instead, it was precisely the proper coordination of the back muscles that made the re-education of the horse possible.

Through their pushing action, the hind legs produce a force in the direction of the motion. The hind legs’ propulsive force is therefore basically horizontal. The vertebral column mechanism is capable at the level of each vertebra to convert the thrust generated by the hind legs into horizontal forces, regarded as forces creating forward movement, and vertical forces, regarded as forces contributing to balance control. The greater the capacity of the vertebral column to convert the hind-leg thrust into vertical forces, the lesser the load on the forelegs and the greater the forelegs’ ability to produce upward propulsive force.

Such education cannot be done at the level of traditional thinking. The rider needs to think and act differently. Deborah, who was Allure’s owner, did just that. In fact, with Science of Motion directives, Deborah was capable of riding efficiently, thereby keeping the horse functional for years.

Another problem later took the horse’s life. One sentence of Deborah’s personal e-mails illustrates the suffering, frustration, and sorrow that the system’s inadequacies brings to both the horse and the owner, who is the one who stays with the horse when the system fails: “My biggest sorrow is that I did not live in a place where we could have worked with you early on and more often. I could be with him in a very different way today.”

The rider’s capacity to think outside the box provides the horse’s only chance, in most instances. The system wants you to be a member of the cult. Instead, the horse expects you to be the leader of another faction, the cult of creating a functional physique. The horse offers his talent to the performance. He has neither the mental capacity to analyze his difficulties, nor the ability to orchestrate his physique efficiently for the performance. The capacity of analysis is a privilege of the human intelligence and is the greatest help the rider can give to the horse. For instance, in the case of “The Horse That Could Not Trot,” the analysis was the difficult part. It is why in the DVD we focus in large part on the analysis of the lameness. Conventional thinking observed lameness of the right hind leg, and therapies focused on the right hind leg as well as proximal back areas. The problem did originate with the right front leg, but the lameness resulted from the compensations that lead to severe torsion of the thoracolumbar spine. It was very easy to resolve the muscular problem of the right foreleg. It was a little more complex to correct the back muscles’ imbalance, but the re-education would not have been possible if the analysis had been about fitting the horse to stereotypes.

Is anyone capable of making such analysis? We have a statistical answer to this question. Yes, in more than 70% of the cases. Yes, if the rider follows his or her heart and trusts his or her first impression. We published on U tube the video that was recorded when we saw the horse that could not trot for the first time. We presented the video with a question: where is the lameness? More than 70% responded that it was either the right foreleg or it was not the right hind leg as it appears at first sight. The problem is that the system does not allow one to follow the accuracy of the initial intuitive analysis; yet neither neck posture nor the ‘inside leg and the outside rein’, or other stereotypical applications would have resulted in a return to soundness.

As shown on the DVD, not only was the horse that could not trot capable to trot, but he later exhibited an outstanding one. Horses perform out of their talent and with the aid of the rider’s skill even if the system does not prepare the horse’s physique adequately for the performance. However, one of two possibilities occur: either the horse performs below his talent to protect himself from abnormal stresses induced on his physique due to incorrect coordination, or the horse has the guts to perform fully in spite of the gait abnormality, and injury occurs. “The gait abnormality created by a specific lesion is the gait abnormality that will cause the lesion.” (James R. Rooney, Biomechanics of Lameness in Horses, 1969)

Jean Luc
www.scienceofmotion.com
Deborah Imershein Comment by Deborah Imershein on February 2, 2010 at 11:37pm
If I had the finances, my current horse, Toastie, and I would have gone to Florida to train with Jean Luc years ago. Even from a tiny bit of video taken back then, Jean Luc could see Toastie's lameness in the RF (hidden to me at that time by the lameness LF) before it manifest.

A few of you may know of my first horse, Allure. He came to me at no cost because he had suspensory desmitis, otherwise known as "breaking down," which means his hind pasterns were parallel to the ground. Despite this dramatic condition and the recommendation of several vets to put him down, Jean Luc took Allure, studied him, and helped him learn how to use his body in a way that maintained his ability to move at all gaits and even to be ridden at all gaits.

Now, in hopes of making life better for many horses, Jean Luc intends to document the process of working with another horse who has no other chance. Manchester's story is unique only in that he is such a well bred animal and has clearly been given every chance money can buy—yet his "problem" persists. I encourage you to support this effort to save a magnificent animal. In the process, you will learn many things of value for the health of your own horse(s).
Helyn Marie Cornille Comment by Helyn Marie Cornille on January 28, 2010 at 2:31pm
We thank you Susie!!!
 

Members (46)

Helyn Marie Cornille Jackie Cochran Margaret Kunz Lyndsey Lewis marthaG Pamela Blake SUSIE-SOLOMON-MABE Laura Coffey Wiola Grabowska Barbara F. Alaina M. Paige Cerulli Elizabeth Gormley Ann Hatfield Lois Keays Lisa McGowan Barnmice Admin Kate Meyers Robyn Wilson Cheryl Gibson Holly Pollock Jackie CAROLYN JENKINSON Denise Colebrooke Brittney Davies Claudia Felstead Jeannie Sine St. Pierre Deborah Imershein Sara Jayne Vidito
 
 
 

Weekly Quiz

NAME AS MANY DIFFERENT RIDING DISCIPLINES AS YOU CAN THINK OF (we know 20!)
Know the answer?
Post it here for the chance to WIN a scrim sheet from Intercity Insurance Services!

Riding Tips

Weekly Photo Caption Contest!

PHOTO CAPTION CONTEST WEEK: AUGUST 30

Add your caption for a chance to win a $50 credit toward a pair of Fits breeches from Baker's Saddlery!

 

Latest Activity

Thanks Karen....have a great day!!
31 minutes ago
The late medieval nobility turned dressage into a sport by giving public demonstrations of "horse ballets" to wow the commoners during public celebrations. They would do airs above the ground as well as movements on the ground. The late medieval kni…
1 hour ago
Dressage Canada added a blog post
Special thanks to Wendy Christoff for submitting this to DC's Communications Committee.
1 hour ago
There are horses that do not think the little fences are worth worrying about. Are you lungeing him over the jumps just in a cavesson, or are you using side reins too? Do you lunge over jumps with a saddle on? Do not use side reins (I am not saying…
1 hour ago
Where did I state that medival dressage was humane and correct? I have stipulated that the SRS under Podhajsky presented dressage more correctly. I know who Kottas is and he is not a horseman! Podhajsky was a horseman and even General Patton was a h…
1 hour ago
2 hours ago
A blog post by Jane Savoie was featured
Hi Guys,One of the biggest mistakes riders make when we're trying to overcome horseback riding fears is that we direct our efforts toward the conscious mind. You know--willpower, iron-jawed determination. The problem with that strategy is that you c…
2 hours ago
Jane Savoie added a blog post
Hi Guys,One of the biggest mistakes riders make when we're trying to overcome horseback riding fears is that we direct our efforts toward the conscious mind. You know--willpower, iron-jawed determination. The problem with that strategy is that you c…
2 hours ago

© 2010   Created by Barnmice Admin.

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service