Hmm, this is the one that I accidentally posted right to your Am I old fashioned group. I eventually was gonna show you my face any way.
Do you think I should make this my profile picture, It's kind of generic looking.

This one is really fast to upload for some reason, I was waiting and waiting for the one Of Cassie and her foal but it was taking too long,

Let me see if I can find a different one with the baby in it

Oh my god, I just thought I was leaving you a comment on your page. And I accidentally posted a picture of myself right in the discussion!

I wanted to congratulate you on such a succesful discussion, and also show you a picture of Cassidy's foal, I got a few older pictures from a friends files.

I got a cheap digital camera but I cant import the pictures, and it does'nt have a removable disk. soon I'll send current ones, Lacys "Dun" appears to be shedding out Grulla also.

Jackie you are so kind and comforting, I wonder if I met you in a past life?

Jackie, you are so cool.... thanks for being a real good friend. I find that very few people really get how the other person feels.... you apologizing is so appreciated, but not necessary... I get off in my own little world and everyone on that thread was trying to help. It was nice. :) I am just used to sticking up for me and Oliver.... he is worth it.. I can feel his heart and how hard he tries.. and only a person with their horse can really feel it on their own... I just think it's cool that you could see a photo and read him.... geez, I hope I can catch up. :) hugs, Jen

Awwwwwww Jackie ... Thank You Sooooo much for your comment.
You're a Genuine GEM .. I wish the world had More Folk Like YOU In It!!!
(((((hugs ya))))))
~ Barby

Jackie you truly are a gift to me, so stimulating when I read your posts. I wonder how there can be another person so interested in the minutia of things like what breeds happen in what patterns.

I have seen the bloody shoulder patch and I think it is most visible on greys but happens on other bases as well. Obviously it's a little bit of Red base color on a black body already expressing grey. On a black horse it would be near in distinguishable which is probably why you dont hear of it.

My 31 yo Chestnut TB has a couple of blackish areas on his belly and a spot on his bum almost like a great big appaloosa spot. (not the white saddle spots) I didnt do those he's always had them

Funny you should mention that skunk tail or ice tail feature that is so common amongst arabs. It does also resemble roan in a very similar fashion as The sabino pattern.

The genetic code for that I think Rbc "Rabicano",

Thanks for enjoying my posts, I enjoy yours

Jackie, Thanks for the kind words and suggestions. I'm sorry about your MS. Really sorry. Nice to be in this network. I hope today's a good one for you.

Hi Jackie - The black horse was loaned to me for a 2,200 horseman parade in the city of Atibia 26 Dec. He is a Mangalarga Marchador. The buckskin horse is one that a friend loans me now, always, which I hope to buy in Oct if all goes well. He is half-half of Mangalarga and Crioulo. Yes he is gated. After owning 2 Quarter horses in Missouri when I was back in the states, not getting use to gated here that much. But this one is very well trained, and problems I had with my Oreo (black-white paint) it is nice to get up on a horse, and know he is not going to take off. She was 4 year old, this one is six, and very used to trail rides or long distances with others.

Yeah, if this is the same sabino pattern that occurs in Welshes, & Clydes, than you can't breed two sabinos because the white ends up all over the body with only very few colored areas, and thats never good.

All white animals have higher chances of ear, eye, and internal disorders. Lethal white overos came about that way, people breeding certain patterns in an attempt to replicate or standardize it. The lethal white Overo syndrome is where the foal is born near entirely white, and has an incomplete digestive tract.

Even solid breeds with white facial, and leg markings should'nt be bred with excessive white because all of the white patterns have the potential to express in homozygous form (double dose) white is the abscence of color, and somehow, some color genes affect other more important things like the senses, and internal organs. In other words horses should'nt be white

In Australian Shepherd's you must'nt ever breed two merles. Only Black Tri, or Red Tri to Blue Merle,or Red Merle. Solids to solids are fine. But two merle dogs will almost surely produce the homozygous form of merle.

The pups are all born white, possibly a dark face marking or two, usually have blue eyes, are usually deaf, and sometimes blind.

Sabino Is what I thought breeds like Welshes, & Warmbloods sometimes have. Where theres 4 tall white socks, a blaze face, & sometimes a belly spot. Is that what we're talking about?

The true creme horse does'nt exist in pure Arabs, I dont know why, and I dont think it ever did. All equines were once duns, but creme is different (not a primitve feature). Flaxen & Creme are totally unrelated but can both be inherited and displayed.

The Sallion "Fire n Ice" is the senior breeding stallion at Tiffany Ranch which produces Pallys & Buckskins, but he is a chestnut with a flaxen mane & tail not a palomino as they advertise him. Yes hes 100% color producer, but of the flaxen feature, not creme dilution. The mare has to contribute the creme for a buckskin or pally foal.

Their more predictable cremes happen when they breed their Red, & Bay mares to their Morgan Cremello "Dreammaker", and Cremello QH "SkipsCremeSupreme". The dilution is contributed by the sire, but the color modifying genes come from the mare, A very light chestnut with Flaxen is likely to throw a paler palomino than will a Liver mare.

Likewise a very deep dark bay mare with lots of shadowing is going to produce a buckskin in the darker, sootier shades.

Their breeding program is very 1/2 Arab Show World focused. So I think alot of the horses I see out in the pastures must be 3/4 or more arab to look the way they do. High set tails, prancy, proud everything about them is distinguishably Arab.

What is the 1/2arab thing about anyway? It cant be like a grading program, or appendix where you can accumulate points, & be nominated in to the regular book.

Do they just stay 1/2 Arabs forever and breed within their own registered horses?

Really I never heard of their temperaments either way. I never thought about it. I guess you cant take a Zebra & make a tractable riding animal out of it, so it stands to reason that neither could it's cousin, since it is a truly wild equine. (meaning wild not feral).

I would never put a child on a real pony other than a ponyride unless the child was an outstanding rider, and I felt the pony was sufficiently honest.

I agree that pure means pure when youre speaking of Arabs and not many other breeds. It would be entirely unethical to try to introduce any outside blood to the Arabian, but the other way around, using Arabian blood to enhance other breeds can be extremely effective, and that does not affect the purity of the Arab breed. I prefer TB blood only because they're big. Honestly I never rode an arab atleast not one I knew was one. I've overlooked them strictly on a size based bias. But I think they are distinguished and regal in every way. My favorite characteristic of the arab is it's resilience, not every horse you come across can just work on and on like an arab.

Does your flaxen gene in the arab breed occur on black base coats like in the Rocky breed?
And sabino is a pinto pattern right? is there a double form of sabino? (too much white)

I live a few properties down from "Tiffany Ranch Arabians" they specialize in creme dilute arabs. Half Arabs I guess, but you would not believe how Typey these horses are. I think they must be 3/4 or more. They come in the loveliest shades of Palomino and Buckskin, they have it dow to a science.

They produce deep dark golden palominos with flaxen manes & tails out of deep liver chestnut mares with the flaxen manes.

Very pale Palominos out of the very light red mares with no flaxen.

Smutty Buckskins that almost look like duns theyre so "smutty" These are born of the smutty bay mares.

And the most beautiful dilution in their barn is the light creamy buckskin, out of the lighthest red bay mares.

Well good morning Jackie I was in town all day yesterday & did'nt get a chance to get on the computer. We're off the grid up here, so I can only use alot of power during the day because we run on solar panels.

Yes I have read about, written about, and seen many pictures of The Sorraia, It was the first equine to be domesticated in Europe, and is a variant of the Tarpan, It is the accepted primitive ancestor to the famed Andalusian & Lusitano. I would imagine, much like other breeds around the world, the representative horses of the area (Andalusians) would have been based on the available "native" pony (in this case sorraia) with added arab & barb blood to refine the type & quality.

These horses are definately the ancestor to our mustang herds displaying the Dun Factor. Kigers etc. Our AQHA horses inherited the dun factor from their mustang heritage. I believe all the American breeds can be traced to spanish stock, and through them the Sorraia. The possibility of them having come as pack animals is exciting though, because that would make the closest resembling mustang herds like an extension of the remaining herd in Portugal.

The herd of 200 is a privately owned refuge in Portugal where they roam wild, and with as little help as possible so thay can breed the way they had been since before humans.
Since their discovery in 1920 tests have been carried out to monitor the degree of inbreeding within the population, and to asses the possible role as ancestor of modern breeds. a sudbook for them has been opened, but they are not a breed of equine are a primitive subspecies of Eohippus.

If we had this breed available in the US I would love to have one as a child's or cart pony they're the most beautiful of the ancient ponies. They look like a mini QH they nearly always occur in Dun colors. Theres a handful of greys and a palomino or two. Wich probably denotes some level of crossbreeding.

Thank you! Sammy is already improving in every ride!

Thank you! And yes, I hope he gets better soon too! :)

Your Welcome Jackie! We've had some wonderful Blog contributors.

yes at that time I had never ever sen a man ride side saddle ! I have since of course but not many! hope you are well , I am great , and am having great rides on my boy's i am so lucky to have them ! I just spent a wonderfull 2 day s in a clinic with the very tallented Steffa Peters you would like him I think, for all his amazing wins he is a very humble nice man with a wonderful feel for the horses.

Hi Again, I think what you saw was the red mutation of dun. It can occur on each of the 3 base colors
Chestnut=red dun, bay= classic bay dun, and black=black dun (grullo).

I agree that dun factor adds degree of toughness, and I think it's because the only horses that made it to modern times with this primitive feature are the actual wild ancestors of the horse (Przewalskii, Tarpan), or very close descendants ("native" pony breeds of europe, Mongolian, Norwegian Fjord etc.)

Until the relatively new development of stockhorse & gaited breeds in the americas using varying degrees of spanish blood from the mustang. Dun had all but been totally eliminated from domestic breeds.

Arabians are one of the breeds where dun factor was culled out early on. So if you see a dorsal stripe. It's probably caused by some other color modyfying gene like "smutty" which can have the effect of leg and dorsal markings but its more like shading than striping.
In early horsebreeding and animal husbandry Dun factor was probably selectively bred out because it was seen as wild or unrefined. By comparison to a solid like Black,Chestnut, Or Bay. Throughout history the patterns or varyiations (pintos,cremes,greys) of the 3 base colors have enjoyed varying degrees of popularity.

To answer your question about whether or not Dun Factor will breed true in big horses. Yes Dun only requires one dose from one parent to result in dun offspring. So Dun + Bay is always Dun, Dun + Chestnut is red dun, &dun + black is a Grullo. That leaves me with only performance based criteria in future generations.

The Creme gene on the other hand is an incomplete dominant and can "hide" for a generation when bred to a solid. Or result in cremello or perlino when any combination of palomino or buckskin is bred. Luckily Creme gene Thoroughbreds and Warmbloods are already in existence So in future generations breeding to or purchasing a modern sport type. That has been tested homozygous for creme will be an option. A homozygous creme bred to bay always makes buckskin.

My horses are not that big, slightly big features but I looked for large, and well put together mares. That would compliment thoroughbred like type. 15 years or so from now I hope for my horses to be considered regular conformation modern sporthorses.