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Would you post a video of an abusive training session online?
If you encountered someone, say a respected professional, riding abusively in private or in the warm-up ring, would you video the ride and post it online?
If so, would you add commentary to the video, or leave it as-is for viewers to interpret on their own?
What kind alternative action would you take?
Views: 192
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by A_Sassy_Temptation on
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I wouldn't, I don't train or ride abusively. period. But if I had to put a video of an abusive training video I would add commentary as to what not to do when this problem arises, and then show how to deal with this problem in a non-abusive way. What do you mean by abusive anyways? for me its making a horse bleed in anyway, starving a horse, giving no pressure and release in anyway (such as tying a horses head into the collection position), etc etc
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Permalink Reply by Shaiarabs on
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I would film it and give it to the relevant authorities or governing body, for example an arabian trainer was videoed from a neighboring property, he was not only charged and taken to court by the rspca but he was also dealt with by the arabian horse society..(cant remember punishment dealt out)
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Permalink Reply by Ashley on
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On one hand, I think it is obviously entirely necessary to video the session and send it off to the authorities. However, on the other hand, it does violate privacy issues, especially if the person in question has not consented to being video taped. This is a delicate balance of ethics/morals, and one must really decide which is worth more to them - the person's rights, or the horse's rights. I'm fairly sure most people here would pick the horse's rights over the person's, but it is something to take into consideration. As for posting the video online, I would not do this. Not immediately, anyway. I would send the video off to the authorities (ASPCA, Breed Society, Police if necessary, etc), and perhaps once the "case" was cleared in court or what have you, the video could be made public for others to see exactly what happened.
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Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on
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Sassy is right, I know abuse when I see it, but my problem is that A LOT of what I consider horse abuse is rewarded by blue ribbons, championships and Olympic medals. Or rewarded with a lot of money (just for the champions) on the rodeo circuit. Don't get me going about the gaited breeds.
On the other hand, a few times when training my colts we sort of got down to it mean and dirty. No injury on either side but sometimes you get into it with a horse.
If it was totally horrible, horse injuring abuse yes, if you can make a video safely (these are violent people after all) by all means do so. Starving horse--yes. I would turn the video over to the proper authorities. If nothing was done I would probably to the Fugly Horse of the Day site and ask her the most effective way to act, she has lots of experience in going after abusers.
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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on
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Things are so open to interpretation... I just mind my own business... I feel sorry for horses that are abused.... but no, I wouldn't tape it..... I'd probably tell my concerns to my trainer and he'd know who to tell about it to.... or if what I thought was abusive was... I think cross country and horse racing is abusive so nobody seems to care about that....
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that is true, but then I guess is injecting hocks abusive? some people may say because I am riding a horse that is somewhat lame without them that I shouldn't be riding, he should be a pasture mate..yet on the other side once the injections are done (approx 10 minutes of pain) for 6 months I can see my horse bucking in the field, and galloping to the gate, and literally acting like a youngen again, plus this horse loves to work, and is always happy to be worked wether in the show ring (where he shines) or in the arena. He is 14 yrs old and badly bred for Halter classes done in the 90's his feet are so small yearlings have bigger feet than he does, and he has a HUGE body to carry on small legs and feet, also he is very straight in the leg so getting his hocks under him to collect properly is a painful experience due to the weight he carries, with injections he is a whole new happy horse.
I think WP got a huge bad rap in the 80-90's when horse were doing mechanical moves, and peanut pushers, yes you heard of people tying their young horses heads down so they grew in the WP frame, and starving horses while training so from the get go they were slow, and then packing them full of food just before resale/show. But I do have to say the judges and APHA, and AQHA did an amazing job making sure abusive riding was unacceptable in WP and that the idea of WP is coming back, not how slow can you go.
I see alot of problems with kids in abuse, their parents purchase expensive show horses (usually 3-6 yrs old), and plop their 5-10 year old child on, the horses are usually (especially in gaited and hotter blooded show horses) to much for the kids so the kids need bigger spurs, harsher bit, longer whip...until the horse is literally abused into submission by children who are told by their million dollar trainer to do so, and then the cycle continues when those children become trainers, have kids..etc etc. Or for breeds sake, look at HYPP, so many people gave up on actual horse health, they just wanted another red ribbon that Halter horses (mainly from the QH stud: Impressive) began a disease that can damage both horse and handler due to line breeding for a specific "look" its aneurological disorder and as of today there is no cure, horse can have seizures and peralisis, and need a very strict diet. AQHA was good about it and now a positive horse for HYPP cannot be registered as of 2007. Another thing with Halter some mares cannot produce young due to being injected with testosterone at a young age in order to build the HUGE muscle that is required and expected in the show grounds. That can also create alot of mental problems along with danger to a unknown handler.
I think Judges are who we NEED to stand up to this, if judges start to physically nit pick, and examine the horse, and trully disqualifiy any abuse and only place NATURAL BEAUTY/TALENT unstead of abuse such as scoring, drugging, weighted shoes, weighted tail, injected tails, rollkur, injection of hormones, etc etc, then people would start breeding better again (eventually) and training would change. Its just been too easy to breed and force the type of training on a horse.
woohoo I wrote alot..sorry. I could write more, but.
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You are right Sassy, the judges are the key people in rooting out abusive practices. Too bad most of them either 1) Don't know better because the incorrect look is the only one they have ever seen or 2) Give ribbons only to big name people no matter how abusive they are. Judges are SO important, they set the fashions (hey, that horse WON, I'll copy him) and they also set the limits of permissable behavior. If judges reward abusive riding or handling, then abusive riding and handling become acceptable behavior at the shows and in training for competition.
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I have a coach that disqualified 2 kids when they were making their horses bleed by there spurs, the parents actually confronted her about it as if making the horses sides actually steadily stream blood was okay, she told them to open their eyes and get their kids off those horses before they ruin them. I believe the horses were ages 4 and 6, kids were about 6 and 7, I was 17 and riding a 19 year old horse. I was so upset with that family, and so proud of my coach. I still have that coach, its been 4 years with her so far. She will be qualifying this winter for her AQHA, APHA, and Pinto judging card. She also has begun learning about dressage and reintroducing herself to the hunter jumper circuit through clinics so I am excited for her to be judging at a higher level, WE NEED PEOPLE LIKE HER!
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If judges did not reward the results of abusive training and methods, then people would be forced to learn to ride properly if they wanted to win in competition.
Just because an abused horse moves flashily and excites the crowd SHOULD NOT mean that its' faulty action and behavior should be rewarded.
I think that one of the foundations of present day abuse in shows comes from the fact that shows became VERY popular activities. There were just not enough experienced knowledgeable horsemen or horsewomen to fulfill the demand for judges. This has happened in all the riding disciplines.
Yes, call the abuser out in some way and in really bad cases definitely call the law. However the only way to really end widespread abuse is to stop rewarding it in the show ring. Only then will people WANT to change. Otherwise they will continue their abusive winning ways. Hey, they get championships (and Olympic medals), don't they?
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but if your "shooting" them up and keep going as you said and the horse ENJOYS it is it wrong? I don't think I am shooting him up, back in the day when he was 3-7 he probably didn't need assitance then his first big show woner did him, and then after that you gotta keep doing it, but small joints and arthritis from age (now 14 years old) along with the previous owners both injecting so unless he is injected and maintained showing the western pleasure world hard and a tad painful. He has never been on bute, if he was at all unsound he wouldn't be ridden, and as a trail horse or pasture horse he would not be on injections, but because WP is all about riding on the hock, he gets ouchey after awhile, and failed the flexion test during a trot at the vet check when he didn't have injections. He always performs with ears up and eyes bright, he loves visiting, and loves the show ring (he has taken people out of province to show, and been grand champion at large shows, along with being spotlight gelding of APHA in Canada including being in magazines) it is his life, and in winter when I did not haul he became sour and grumpy, now that I ride everyday he is this beautiful horse that wants to be with you constantly, and an attention hog. So for me I will dial down when my horse shows me he's done, when he isn't gun ho about the show ring, the arena looses its luster, he does open his mouth wide for a bit and bridle himself, then he will be retired, injections will be limited just to keep him in pasture comfort (if they are even needed), and he will live the rest of his days with me, watching me ride the youngens and teach lessons because hopefully by then I have my coaching license and showing will be put on the back burner as I help clients. I don't know why I wrote so much again, but I was just curious if you were entitling me to the "dail it down a bit...not shoot them up"
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Permalink Reply by Stina Herberg on
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Well yes maybe i am not sure, but when this video of abusive dressage was posted, i surely learnt something new
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIXGiV4N4k
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oh god, what a gentle horse in that video, and only once did he kick at the rider.. There is more than just the tongue being trapped between bits there in regards to what I consider abuse. I used to ride an old retired wrmblood X gelding and his neck was permanently at this ugly arch like a rollkur horse, and when you stretched it out for chiro work there was the triangle of muscle in the middle of his neck. He had been ridden with his head pulled to a "collection" spot for 20 years and it actually started growing that way and now he has to be ridden like that or people gawk, I was so uncomfortable at that barn with only 12 inches of rein, that not only did I never go back to any english type discpline (I went to WP because there was no rein contact in my unknown eyes), but I still have problems talking to the coach that taught me at the time. I know realise since I have grown up and more wiser that its not everyone, and I have started riding english again, but it was a good 4-5 years.
oh just finished watching the uncut version of that video, and the comments at the bottom say that a petition was made due to the technique the rider was using and FEI on February 9th imposed sanctions against this technique. Again, now its up to the judges to follow the rules and get rid of it!
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