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Body language of horses; the calming signals
In the video "Linda Parelli shows how to effectivly hit with the snap" I commented on the horses use of what I call "calming signals". Since there were some interesst in what I wrote I thougth we could talk about it in this forum thread.
I wrote (so I don't have to repeat myself):
Cartoonracher wrote: "When the young woman is trying to back her horse away (under the big tree), he's obviously confused and "over" the whole lesson. He's tuning her out because nothing he's done has been rewarded. It's nothing but non-stop horse-irritating."
I reacted especially to that scene, too. At first the girl is trying to back the horse when he is in front of the tree. Horses don't have good depth perception, especially backwards, so it seems he is asked to back into the tree, something he feels he can't.
After this the horse is seemingly tuning her out, something Linda claims is disrespectful. The sad thing about it is that the horse is NOT tuning her out, the horse is communicating with horse body language that he is not wanting any conflict. I talk about this in my body language clinics a lot, because not many people seems to be aware of the horses
"calming signals".
Horses use these signals when they feel pressured and wants to let the person understand that they perceive them as agitated/aggressive, but that the person can calm down, because they do not pose any threat to them.
Some of the comments here has been about the horse arching away and trying to turn away from the people. What the horse is trying to do is to signal that he's NOT a threat, and by that it's trying to get the person to not be so aggressive. This is the very opposite of disrespect!
The worst thing about the horses calming signals is that it provokes people. People feel ignored and that is for a human a big provocation. Especially when they have been taught that this is a disrespectful sign from the horse! It's a bit off topic here, but I mention it because it's part of the problem with the clip; not only is she using a horrible technique, she is also gravely misreading the horse!
Even a mild correction would have been wrong when the horse is signaling "lets just have peace - I don't wish to fight with you"… if a horse gives you that message and you correct it you are basically telling it "I don't want peace - and I do want to have a fight".
Like I said, it's off topic, but if someone wants me to explain more about these signals I can, we could always make a separate discussion about it.
The horses calming signals is something I haven't written about before although I talk about this in my clinics. There are a couple of reasons for that: one, I don't know how to begin writing about it - in a clinic it comes naturally when a horse displays the signals - and also because I don't know how much people knows about this already. In Scandinavia, where I live and teach, I know that my students says that this is news to them, but for all I know this is common knowledge in Canada :)
Another big reason is that what I am talking about goes against what most trainers believe in, and rocks the foundation of what many people consider natural horsemanship. I think...
Last, but not least; it is a big topic... so to write about it is a big task, but I will do so if I see that people truly are interessted in what I am talking about :)
That is why I want this to be in a discussion form, to get a grasp of what you know about this already, and also to be able to show some video clips to show you what I am talking about.
To not make this text too long I think it's a good idea if I write seperate posts about the different signals. That way I can add on information as I see what people have questions about :)
I wrote (so I don't have to repeat myself):
Cartoonracher wrote: "When the young woman is trying to back her horse away (under the big tree), he's obviously confused and "over" the whole lesson. He's tuning her out because nothing he's done has been rewarded. It's nothing but non-stop horse-irritating."
I reacted especially to that scene, too. At first the girl is trying to back the horse when he is in front of the tree. Horses don't have good depth perception, especially backwards, so it seems he is asked to back into the tree, something he feels he can't.
After this the horse is seemingly tuning her out, something Linda claims is disrespectful. The sad thing about it is that the horse is NOT tuning her out, the horse is communicating with horse body language that he is not wanting any conflict. I talk about this in my body language clinics a lot, because not many people seems to be aware of the horses
"calming signals".
Horses use these signals when they feel pressured and wants to let the person understand that they perceive them as agitated/aggressive, but that the person can calm down, because they do not pose any threat to them.
Some of the comments here has been about the horse arching away and trying to turn away from the people. What the horse is trying to do is to signal that he's NOT a threat, and by that it's trying to get the person to not be so aggressive. This is the very opposite of disrespect!
The worst thing about the horses calming signals is that it provokes people. People feel ignored and that is for a human a big provocation. Especially when they have been taught that this is a disrespectful sign from the horse! It's a bit off topic here, but I mention it because it's part of the problem with the clip; not only is she using a horrible technique, she is also gravely misreading the horse!
Even a mild correction would have been wrong when the horse is signaling "lets just have peace - I don't wish to fight with you"… if a horse gives you that message and you correct it you are basically telling it "I don't want peace - and I do want to have a fight".
Like I said, it's off topic, but if someone wants me to explain more about these signals I can, we could always make a separate discussion about it.
The horses calming signals is something I haven't written about before although I talk about this in my clinics. There are a couple of reasons for that: one, I don't know how to begin writing about it - in a clinic it comes naturally when a horse displays the signals - and also because I don't know how much people knows about this already. In Scandinavia, where I live and teach, I know that my students says that this is news to them, but for all I know this is common knowledge in Canada :)
Another big reason is that what I am talking about goes against what most trainers believe in, and rocks the foundation of what many people consider natural horsemanship. I think...
Last, but not least; it is a big topic... so to write about it is a big task, but I will do so if I see that people truly are interessted in what I am talking about :)
That is why I want this to be in a discussion form, to get a grasp of what you know about this already, and also to be able to show some video clips to show you what I am talking about.
To not make this text too long I think it's a good idea if I write seperate posts about the different signals. That way I can add on information as I see what people have questions about :)
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on
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I am super interested because I get scolded for giving my horse the benefit of the doubt, calling him docile and not being threatening to him.. I did think he was blowing me off... and my other horse I thought he was afraid of me when he bent away, but horse communication is all I care about. Here I go getting into this blog! Hi Jackie..... Hi Patty. :)
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I have a question for everyone here..... I try and read my horses. I haven't even ridden them in a long time but I hang out with them for hours at a time to see what they heck they are saying..... I've learned from them that neither one of them really careless about managing each other unless one gets goin then the other one woohoo's sort of and they get into it... but here is my question. he does not come to me with his ears forward... EVER.
When your horse is looking at you and walking forward to you and his head is down but his ears are back..... what do you think his ears are saying?
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Permalink Reply by Megan Hammock on
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I'm curious about this, too.. That's how my "dominant" mare is most of the time--ears back, but not pinned.. She doesn't seem afraid to come up to me, but I feel like she is nervous.. Even though the rest of her body language is pretty much saying "oh hey, what's up?" She's more skittish of environmental things but more comfortable with people.. My other girl that won't let us touch her is braver about environmental stuff and explores things more.. But usually keeps her ears back, sort of in between "I'm nervous" and "I'll bite your FACE!"
Glad you asked.. I didn't think to:)
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Permalink Reply by Cyndi on
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A trainer told me that if the horse is coming at you with its ears back, it's a sign of disrespect (there's that word again! lol). My mare has done it on occasion, and sometimes I think it's because she knows that when I come to see her I usually give her a treat. But she doesn't do it all the time. I do watch her ears (as well as the speed at which she is approaching me), and if they are back, I either hold up my hand or else I snap my fingers and point at her, and that usually causes her to perk her ears forward. Then I smile at her and call her over and her ears are forward. Having said all this, I'd like to know if there are other reasons for her to do this.
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my trainer told me when Oliver was itty bitty baby going for his food and I was no where around to watch how he approaches it... he walks up to it with his ears back..... he told me the word was "interested"...... not curious, not disrespectul, not mad....... interested..... LOL I sometimes don't release the pressure until his ears are forward.... just to see if it changes his attitude.
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Hah! That's so cute and funny! I'm curious how that could be interpreted as disrespect? :P Interested seems to be right though--Kai always has this air of "hey, what's going on over here?" when she approaches that way. We aren't, however, interesting enough to stay around sometimes. Haha:) Has "interested" seemed to be the case with your fellows so far?
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I have worked on communication with my horses for 6 years.... I do not know how to ride hardley anymore at all..... but yes, they are interested.... when I even come out the back door to my house they call... their eyes and ears are always on me..... it feels really good considering Toby wouldn't come near me and I was riding him during this stage of our relationship and Oliver was trying to run me down.. now I have two, handsome, polite, interested, funny, noisy, vocal sweetheart horses.... I learned that if I couldn't keep their attention i couldn't teach them anything..... just now I went outside, and we worked on the word trot, they both trotted a little and I left...... Oliver loves his cliker training.... when I go back out there after checking my phone messages and my emails I guarantee you they will be interested in where I went and when I am coming back..... I keep our lessons kind of short.... and all of us wanting more... I make sure I smile, laugh and love them up with praise and they are very very interested in me.... this I accomplished just recently though when I started using my clicker.. which I am JUST learning about so I might make mistakes.... but Oliver is not blowing me off anymore which is all he used to do and his feet are not stuck..... he actually trotted for me where before he would stand and it was like he was saying "make me, make me"... actually, Linda Parelli was the one that said to be interesting.... so I went outside by myself and figured out for weeks on end what they found interesting... and now I know... praise and treats and clicks and positive energy.
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Hi Cyndi.... there was no response place under your question so I will tell you the answer to your question. My mustang and I and my other elder horse Toby live together...... at my house. nonetheless between my trainer in my ear and my friends telling me too much stuff that made me nervous like, "he is disrespectful, he doesn't give to pressure, roundpen him more, yell at him more, kick him, he's this or that"...... I sent them all away, including my trainer..... I started reading a book by Gawani Pony boy and how the indians worked with their horses...... slowly, and built a relationship..... and eventhough I have never been around horses in my life I decided to just do what he said, "Spend Time with your Horse" and I went outside and started doing my fine art of hanging out.... what is he really like around my other horse, etc...... and I noticed in his body language that he was stiff... almost like he had a chip on his shoulder....... and I decided to soften it..... and to also do what Chris Irwin taught me which was endorphine release...... well, here I am outside, by myself, with my orphaned colt, who had bashed me with his head, run me down, etc..... unable to even get in a pen with him for quite a long time, (he was merely handled by my trainer) and I made friends with Oliver...... and I honestly had to learn how to not be afraid of him for any reason and it took me a long time..... but I didn't let anyone near us... I just hung out with my horses for 2 years... didn't even ride...... also, I did the Waterhole Rituals which are mentioned here too...... by Carolyn Resnick and now here I am thankfully on Ellen's page to further my understanding of how to tame a wild mustang..... by yourself at home, LOL... and my Oliver, he follows me, nickers to me and listens to me...... and we have grown up together in the last five years.... and I can't wait to ride him now..... I am totally unafraid of him and he of me.... but in our unsurities of the past we really had to work on our energy and our relationship because we were afraid of one another and crashing and I was getting really hurt..... he was dangerous..... until I started letting him show me what he meant and trying to really understand what he was telling me...... and now that chip on his shoulder is softening and softening, his eyes are softer, his general behavior is happier, easier, lighter and more willing.... he calls to me when he wants company..... it's just cool... for my first experience I am really having a much better time than when I cried and people told me my horse was aggressive and I wouldn't give up on him.. i pretty much thought he was reacting to me.... and all I do with him whenever I see him is see if I can get him more relaxed at the end than he was at the beginning.... some people ride and might be bored with my learning of horse language but I have nothing to lose... I never had a horse before and I don't know how to ride well.. but I sure the heck knew how to be nervous and terrified and I'm not into it... even Steve, my trainer gets a big chest when he sees Oliver with me because my colt, he is very very attached now..... and he is really a neat horse... now.....
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I cannot even imagine treating my horse like Linda Parelli was asking her student to in the video... that rude and bully bahavior by me, which to me is really just Linda being scared and a ditsy is what got me in a lot of trouble with this horse.... he reared up and tried to come down on me one day.... using techiques of teaching ground manners and respect on the ground.... bout got killed one Sunday outside by myself..... that's why I started thinking that why am I fighting with him? why am I provoking him and why is he so pissed at me? and that's when it started..... that horrible day of getting almost killed by my horse for asking the wrong way led me to believe that they understand nice asking... and that they don't really want to fight.... and I was right because in my view he is a sweet and docile horse that was being provoked by an idiot.... and that's why I worked on myself....
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Jennifer, thank you so much for sharing your story with us!! I really appreciate it. I've had my mare for two years, and people can't understand why I don't ride her more, or why she's not as "well trained" as she could be. They all want me to get on her more and get 'tough' with her. I'm like you, I just want a better relationship with her first. Fanny is my first horse. I want her to practically beg me to get on! LOL!
You've inspired me. The picture speaks volumes of how far you've come. Way to go!
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I always tell myself Cyndi when people tease me because I don't ride him..... well they can ride their horse and bridle him all up and have tack on but can they work with him at liberty, call him over, have him roll or yawn or relax????? they can't... they really didn't take the time to have a relationship..... energy work is more long term with your mare than riding is..... like I said, now I can't wait to ride and my horse wants me to ride..... it's just the logical next step..... my trainer is working on the new Pirates of the Caribbean movie as he is a stunt man but he even told me something that you might find interesting the last time I saw him.... he let go all of his students except the ones that want to have a relationship with their horses because otherwise he is teaching riding lessons to people who have no interest in the horse, just in the riding... people that push you along to ride don't know how much other stuff there is to do that is fun and makes your horse more confident...... when they trust you they are easier to ride...... I even started workig with my 22 year old been there done that nervous wreck horse... I rode him for 4 years but he never willingly came to me he was so shy..... so what fun is that???? I think you are amazing that you want her to beg you to get on...... because that is really possible..... and if you want to ever chat about it I love horse talk..... :) do you have a pic of you and Fanny?
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My mare stood still for me to get on her bareback the other day, which was a pleasant surprise. She is usually pretty good about standing still, but there are also times when she will move her hind end away from me when I stand on a mounting block. I can't help but think that she has no interest in me getting on when she shows that type of behavior. I would love for her to be a willing partner in our relationship, so I will keep working on it.
Your trainer sounds like a very smart man. Good for him for setting priorities and not being driven by just making money teaching people how to ride.
Will try to dig up a decent pic of my mare and me. It's easy to get a decent pic of her because she's gorgeous. Me...not so much :o)
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