No Respect

Hello! I need some advice on two horses and their behaviors.

First one is a mare named Sensation. I'm not sure about her age but she's still pretty young, maybe 4 or 5 now but for the first year of her life, she ran wild with her mother in a pasture. She is a difficult horse to understand. In a small pen she is easy to catch and will sometimes even come right up to you. Recently she was put out into a larger paddock with other ponies and is now near impossible to catch unless you run her into exhaustion which isn't really a method I enjoy. She is INCREDIBLY smart and is not afraid to bowl you over if you happen to be in the way when she makes a run for it. If cornered, she gets really flighty and forces her way through. It took us 5 people on foot and 1 on a cutting horse and about an hour and a half of trying to corner her putting her into exhaustion, to finally catch her.
Once you get a hand on her halter or manage to scratch her butt or something, you've got complete control but the hard part is getting within an inch of her.
We've tried aggressive force, the patience method and even bribery to get her to comply. Nothing really works.

My question is, Do you think that she will ever be easy to catch or will remain difficult for the rest of her life?

The other horses name is Dots. She's my yearling in my profile picture. This one is probably easier to understand and come up with a solution but the explanation might be a little lengthy. Anyway, She's a year and a half, was never handled once when she was born but she lived with horses that were so she was easy to approach. Her first owner never touched her so coming spring, I saw her in a paddock with huge mats of fur on her belly about an inch thick. I spent the next few days shedding it off with a blade. I believe this to be the time that we truly bonded.
Anyway, so I do a lot of groundwork with her. She's patient and brave in the arena but the main problem lies in...getting her out of the front pasture where the other horses are. She is halter broke and follows the lead VERY well...in the arena. You put that halter on her outside, she'll obviously step sideways when you go to lead her away but then she'll plant her feet and not move an inch. I've tried many ways to get her to move. She's very sassy and I believe her to be trying to teach me something when she rebels like this.

Some ways i've tried was just standing there and waiting till she gave to the pressure. Another was holding the leadshank in my right hand and holding the excess with my left and flipping it around behind me to spank her lightly in the butt to get her to move. Don't even mention taking a whip out. Just recently we had a HUGE fight in which we couldn't decide who was the leader. She got mad, swung her bum to me and nearly kicked me but I was standing more off to the side so I could dodge, I then sent her forward and tried to get her butt off me. After, like, a minute of this very serious fight (it felt like forever D:), we made up and we were good for the rest of the walk but honestly...

I don't want to be the leader per se. I want to be the partner. If she makes a decision, I want to approve and if I make a decision, I want her to approve. I don't want to be all 'this is how I want it done MY way and my way only, slave!' Ya know? I want to meet half way.

Do you think I'm being too much of a push over or do you think she just needs more training or perhaps she's just young and doesn't want to leave the herd? Got any suggestions on how to teach a horse to lead, new or altered suggestions are always welcome. =)

I can make videos too if you can't quite visualize what they do. It's hard for me to describe it without going overboard.

Thanks for the help! ^^

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on November 23, 2009 at 11:15am

Hello... I have a mustang. He's 4..... he used to rear, or strike, or whathaveyou, but he's always been easy to catch. I think what helped me the most was pushing through and insecurities I had that I could manage Oliver... and I still work in it. We go nice and slow, patience and consistency are our friend. I realized that I was going for respect, when I should have gone for trust. Now that he trusts me more, and I trust him more, we are doing much better.....

The younger horse that you are training.... she is just young.... I saw my Oliver grow out of that stuff, though he never ever tried to kick me.... when he was a baby, I rubbed him mostly and talked to him and groomed him while he was eating.....

I think they rebel when they are scared and need encouragement. Good luck!! My horse has stood planted before too... the second she even thinks about moving forward, praise praise praise.

Permalink Reply by vickie lawson on January 20, 2010 at 4:04am

i think you definitely need to be the leader. horses need a leader and lose confidence if you aren't leading them. i have had several youngsters and they are always second to me. this morning my 2 yr old took a slow sideways swipe towards me when i was doing his feet. he was loose in the stall but got a whallop then tied up and after finishing with his feet , i left him tied when i put his sister out 1st. so he had to stand where he couldn't see her. all part of him recognising that i am in control and he needs to follow my lead. think about a herd situation. there is always a lead mare and a hieracy. the youngsters have to follow their lead or they are repremanded-bit, kicked, chased. they know this system and we don't have to be mean to them, but we do have to show leadership.

Permalink Reply by Shirley on January 20, 2010 at 11:30am

Tiffany, It's been a couple of months now since you posted. How are things going now?

Permalink Reply by Tiffany on January 20, 2010 at 5:58pm

Hello Shirley. ^^ Didn't expect this thread to get some more responses in so long. Things are... interesting. Winter has come and naturally it's just difficult to get out to the barn lately to see my horses but I still go despite freezing my toes off. =)

I decided to try Monty's Join-up technique. I put Dots into the round pen... I honestly think the Barn Owner needs to get a different round pen or something... Or add 2x4's along the bottom of it. My horse can actually duck under the wood and run away haha.
Umm.. I don't exactly remember what I typed in this thread and I don't exactly feel like re-reading it all, but Dots has changed for the better. I've labeled her personality as the kind of 'person' that always appears indifferent to all situations but in actuality, they are really loving and careful. It's hard to explain it actually. Usually she'll just be eating her hay out in the pasture and I can climb all over her and hug her and kiss her and she'll just keep eating but when I stop, she'll just lift her head and press her nose to my chest.

As for her training, It's been hard to be at the barn every day but she's the bravest horse I've ever met. I throw saddles on her, tarps over her body and head, backing through dark scary holes, etc. She follows me out of the pen much easier now... but how that came about was just strange... I remember taking her away from eating, put the halter on and started to walk. She followed for a few steps but then stopped. I insisted she keep going. She took a few more steps, stopped. I think I got frustrated that time so I yelled REALLY loudly at nothing in particular, faced her, dropped the lead rope and just stared. I think we stared for about 5 minutes before I picked up the rope and just started walking and she followed. After that, she's never stopped since. o.O No clue if that would work for any other horse but it worked for Dots. XD She does, however, get a little muggy sometimes if she thinks I have treats. Usually I don't have anything in my pocket but she'll point her nose there just to see. She's much better with respectful spacing most times but when she gets REALLY bored, she'll nudge you. To her, it's probably a light nudge but when we feel it, it's kind of like someone pushing you really hard. She just picked up this habit which leads me to wonder if she is getting any better with her respectful space. I might have to go back to the basics with it if she's nudging me.

Hello Slc2. =) I do think you are going a tad overboard but since I am the one asking for input, I won't grill you for it. And just fyi, Sensation has been under training for a very long time. She is ride-able now but still, unfortunately, impossible to catch. I think it's imprinted and will stay with her forever. She is more friendly towards people though. *shrug* I haven't been keeping tabs on her lately.

Permalink Reply by Shirley on January 20, 2010 at 11:54pm

Sounds like you are progressing/ Nothing happens over night. This is a journey, a process. I agreed with some of the things sic was saying but I also agree with you that she was going a bit over board, I was turned off by her way of presenting her opinions. But do be careful of some of the things she mentioned that could be an accident waiting to happen...the barb wire comes to mind. Best wishes to you in your efforts and progress. Always be willing to ask for assistance when you need it. It's not worth getting seriously hurt. It's so much fun and rewarding to progress with a horse.
What does John Lyons teach after he teaches you to do the join up? I've seen some of his stuff, read a book or two and have a couple videos but none of it went into any depth of training ideas. I'm curious if you want to share. What things have helped you? Personally I've clicked with Pat and Linda Parelli but there is lots of stuff out there for different folks.

Permalink Reply by Tiffany on January 21, 2010 at 12:45am

Yeah, I've come to terms with being a bit more careful. Personalities done a complete 180 haha. Thanks for the support. =)

Also, I don't know anything of John Lyons work. Monty Roberts is the man who taught me Join-up. I follow Mr.Monty and Linda Kohanov's work, religiously. I don't really care for riding the horses. I think I lean way more to the spiritual side of things which is why it's so hard for me to grasp certain...aspects of training methods. Usually after Join-up, from what I've learned, it's just about desensitizing and loads of trust. This would be just my starting point and I use it a lot on several abused or shy horses (mainly because that is the type of personality of horse that I am attracted too. Aside from Dots, that is).
Honestly, it's hard to explain what has helped me because I don't really notice it. It kind of just comes naturally. I've noticed that all of the horses that I've done join-up with, are much easier to handle and are more willing to accept the really bizarre things that I introduce to them.

Ehh, to be completely honest though... I haven't done Join-up with Dots yet because the Round pen is very bad. For one, it's waaay too big. It's almost like a second arena. XD And second, my horse is small enough to just duck under the railing and run away when she's off-halter. >__> One thing I also noticed with join-up is a horse is more willing to follow you around and less likely to run when they hear the jingle of a halter. Another thing he teaches is passive leadership. o.o That one I really follow by. I dunno, it's just the fact that the horse wants to be by you rather then having to tolerate you because you 'own' it, is what makes me admire Monty and Linda's methods. Their methods inspire you to, uh, speak Equus instead of human language.

Permalink Reply by Shirley on January 21, 2010 at 1:21pm

Tiffany, I misspoke when I said John Lyons, I had the right person in mind, Monty Roberts when I asked about more of his teaching techniques.
We do have quite a bit of similar thoughts. I am also spiritual minded when it comes to horses. I want them to be with me and work with me cause they want to. Pat. said one day as he dismounted his horse, "Was it as good for you as it was for me?" and I loved that.
I like using as little 'make' as possible to both be safe. I love to do ground work and communicating in that way where you have their full attention with both eyes and can communicate what you'd like them to do and they do it and then lick and chew with what seems to be satisfaction. Or when they'll walk along side of you and go at the same pace and stop and back right along with you and sideways too. I'm anxious to progress with all of this and see just how beautiful the relationship can develop. I can see our own dance routine developing. We have gotten to the point that he will walk- trot -canter around me without a line or round pen and he'll do transitions and change direction without the line. Right now we're working on getting it to be more reliable/dependable. If he's in the right mood, he'll just meander off and go where his nose directs him.
What sort of bizarre things are you doing with the horses? It's always fun to hear how others are having fun-time with their horse.
My own horse is great with a wonderful spirit. We have a special relationship. He comes to the pasture gate when he sees me get to the barn and will follow me around.
I am drawn to horses that seem to need me or need something that I might be able to give them. We had one horse at a place I boarded at that had been abused and he was very unsure about people. I have some training knowledge from boarding at a training barn and reading and watching lots of videos. But I pretty much treated him like I'd like to be treated if I was scared and we really bonded.. He was a bit of a fairy tale for me. He has a huge chunk of my heart. We taught each other to be braver and to listen to our instincts about who we could trust. But in general I am drawn to the horses at the barn that just need some caring and attention.
Are you involved at all in trying to help keep the wild horses in the west free or finding a better way to help the over-abundance of horses rather then slaughter? Both of these issues are very close to my heart and cause much concern for their well being and treatment. I forward as much information as I can so others will become aware and write to the political . powers that do have a say that can stop these mistreatment's. I am amazed at how little even horse people care and many are so disgusted that they've just given up. There are days when the mistreatment gets so bad that it is depressing to focus on but I take a step back and then go back to it after some time with my special guy.
Keep Horsen Around!.