What do you say??? A yes or a no for Natural Horsemanship??

I came up with the idea to start a discussion on the topic: Natural Horsemanship
This because I am a true fan of this way of training, and have had lots of success using this method, on many different horses, with different personalities and training issues.
Even though I am really into this form of training, at the same time I am critical about it. This because I have seen many ( very novice) people, thinking they were doing natural horsemanship, while in fact they didn't have a true understanding of it, and what they were trying to achieve, leading to sometimes very dangerous situations.

I think, because the big NH people, make it so commercial, they attract people that can afford it, but not necessairy people that have a deep feel and understanding about horses to begin with. The way it is being spread out to the world, is almost fairytale like, and it looks amazing, all this softness and lightness............. Unfortunatelly, in reality, this is the end goal, but cannot always be how it will go at the start of the training. I have worked with many horses, of which many were/ are stallions, and I couldn't start off being soft and cuddly, as they would have crushed me within one second. I had to level my energy with theirs, and sometimes that means that I have to correct them hard and firm, but eventually they become soft and light, and respond only to a change in my body :)

Don't get me wrong, I love NH, groundwork, and I have done the most amazing things, through this kind of work with horses. But I don't believe that one system, works for every horse, as they are all individuals, and some of them have had some very traumatic experiences.
I wish, that the bigger people in NH, would make their methods more accessable, for people that truly have the talent and the feel to become good mentors themselves. That way, the point that they are trying to spread out to the world, won't loose any quality.......
I would love to know, what other people think about this subject,

So bring it on with the comments on this everyone!!!!!

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Permalink Reply by laura day on July 9, 2009 at 4:49pm

wow, super duper topic! he he! I dont believe that horses should 'follow' humans. for a start its a 500kg - animal...where is the safetty in that if/when the flight instinct is reactive. Horses first and foremost should be obedient to the handlers signals. Monty Roberts etc may dress this up as magically as they like, and although some of the 'NH' techiniques that i am aware of use operant and classical conditioning (Science based equine learning theory) others are unexplainable to a lamen and are certainly unreplicable to onlookers, therefore it is not a robust method of horse training. Trust and respect are words used alot....As far as im concerned the defention of trust where a horse is concerned is that the handlers behaviour is predicatable i.e the same consequences for the same behavioural reactions. Horses learn by trialing behaviours and as predictable handlers, it is up to us to provide negative or positive reinforcements with correct timing in order to give the horse a reason to 'give us' a desirable behaviour. This can be done with the release of pressure (negative reinforcement) or by adding something like food (positive reinforcement). To put humanistic terms onto a horse which (we are all in agreement) is not a human in my opinion is wrong Dont get me wrong, i kiss my boy on the nose and call him my 'other man' he he, but when it comes to training, there is no room for anthropomorphism. When 'respecting your personal space' is concered, that is a humanistic term and while some people may view a horse as having 'respect for your space' i view it as being obedient to the handlers signals (physical pressure or body language pressure) as a stimulus.

well, sure i waffled a bit there...like i said..interesting topic! he he!

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Permalink Reply by Kinni P on July 9, 2009 at 5:10pm

"As far as im concerned the defention of trust where a horse is concerned is that the handlers behaviour is predicatable i.e the same consequences for the same behavioural reactions."
This is what makes or breaks any training system.
I'm a operant conditioning fan myself. Using clicker training has allowed me to communicate with my horses in a way no other technique does. Moreover, they really are interested in training. You just haven't lived until you've watched two horses bicker over who gets to work first.
My TB, a rescue, still has some aggression issues under certain circumstances. I've recently started experimenting with Constructive Aggression Treatment with him, a form of negative reinforcement. It seems to be working well. Since I started taking more of a behavioural sciences approach to horse training, I've relaxed a lot. I don't worry so much about the end result, because there really isn't an end result. There's always another clickable moment. There's always the potential for micro-shaping. It really makes the journey fun for all of us.

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Permalink Reply by Sissi Wagnerberger on July 9, 2009 at 5:14pm

hey everyone,
well i grew up with natural horsemanship and its the best thing that could hav happened to me. now i hav my own style of working with my horses but it was great to grown up with it. I do dressage now but i also still do natural horsemanship. I think you guys hav kind of misunderstud what it actually is because yes if you would hav your horse natural then they would be out in a field and you wouldnt thouch them but natural horsemanship is learning your horses language. If you watch a herd of horses in a paddock you will know what i mean because they actually speak with body language. If a lower horse in the herd is standing by the water through and a higher horse comes along its not gonna walk around the lower horse to get to the water its gonna make him/her move out of the way first they look at them then they walk towards them and if they still dont move put their ears back and if they still dont move kick or bite!
same with nh when i ask my horse to move his hindquaters i look at them and think that i want him to move then i walk toiwards his hindquaters then i swing the rope and keep walking and if he dosent move well he happens to be in the way of the rope so he gets hit. But its his own choice if he wants to get hit or not because if he moves he dosent get hit and if he dosent well he gets hit so its his own choice just like in the paddock.
so thats what nh really is and you can see if you watch your horses in the paddock.
I do agree that it has gone wrong so many times because of people that dont know what their doing hav just read the books or watched the dvds and though oh i can do natural horsemanship now but there is much more to it so its always best to get a good trainer to teach you.
We hav had some great results from nh:
well we hav a gorgous stallion called nezir and he is now amazing he can be led without a halter be ridden bareback with just a halter and he is the most gentle horse i hav ever met he absolutley loves chilren and even tought a baby how to walk (letting it hold onto his legs to stand up and walk).
But before he came to us he was not treated the way any horse should be treated:
First they wanted to show him but he wasent afraid of plastic (they use plastoic to get the excited at the arab shows) so they wanted to make him afraid of plastic by putting it around him and beating him with it but then he didnt do well in the show ring so they wanted to ride him and couldnt get a bridle on so they twitched him on his ears and he was absolutley terrified of people and they couldnt handle him anymore so they were gonna bring him to the slaughter house but before that mum got him!
They said watever you do dont take his halter off and ofcourse the first thing my mum did was take the halter off and let him go for a good run in his paddock and have a good time. He was absolutley head shy and yo could halter him but he was scared and ran away so it took my mum and her trainer 3months to put a halter on him safely without him totally freaking out and running away.
he is still a bit head shy but its getting better and you can put a halter on and thouch everything but his ears.
The thing with horses is you cant get rid of a bad experice they hav had you can just cover it up with good things so whenever something remindes him of his bad part of life he will freak but if mum is there he calms down quickly because he trust her!
Last time we were breeding we had a mare that was really scared and jumped the fence a few times because the person holding her couldnt hold her anymore and ofcourse nezir escaped too because he wanted to breed but all mum had to do was scream NEZIR STOP and he would freeze untill mum caught him.
It was amazing to watch!
She also had a very green arab gelding he was always jumpy and would run all over top of you and didnt respect your space and now after 10 years he is the best trained horse at our stable! he basically never wears a halter just comes out of his paddock without and will follow you like a dog he can be ridden without halter bridle saddle anything usually just a rope around his neck or without he can lie down knee sit do spanish walk can do basically every dressage move and has been learning piaffe and rearing and he is going great!

But we also had a bad experience but not with NH:
We had a trainer and he was good with the horses that were already good to lead and ride etc etc.
But there was one colt and he wasent imprinted properly because we were away when he was born so we couldnt get near him. He worked with him put too much pressure on him and guess what that poor little baby boy ran thru a WOODEN wall!!!
that was it we said goodbye to the trainer and he has never been here again!
now after doing proper NH with him he can be haltered in 5 mins and can be led etc without a problem he is just still a little scared everytime he sees a halter if it has been a while since he was haltered.

With my mini foals i usually imprint them and stuff but i only put a halter on when they are ready now i usually keep them untill they are weaned and ready so im not in a hurry to get them on a halter they choose when they are ready which is usually just before they get weaned this season i had 3 foals: mr patch he was a dream to train came up to you and it took us about 3 weeks to get him to halter without a problem and be led. then there is Little miss sunshine she was VERY shy when she was small i couldnt touch her and now she is the first at the gate the first time i tried to put a halter on she stood there like she has been doing it for years and was so proud of her little halter she is the friendlist foal i hav at the moment and lets you do absolutley everything with her she even lies down to get you to scratch her tummy. Then there is cloud he is now about half a year old and i havent had a halter on him untill a few weeks ago he would let you pat him etc etc but he wouldnt let you put a halter on him and i always tried but he wasent ready now he comes up to me and lets me put a halter on him without a problem!
Thats just me everyone had a diffren opinion but thats how i train my foals and they are great mr patch is sold to a lovley new home and the first time he had to go on a trailer he was a absolutle angel he wasent sure at first but then his friend was in there so he forgot about his fear and got on without a problem. Now he goes into the house has children fussing about him and he wont get off the deck lol and he is just a absolute angel and all my minis are like that i sold a gelding about half a year ago he was amazing he was absolutley bomb proof and walked onto the trailer like he is 20 lol.
well anyway enough from me lol i hav had so many good experiences with my way but i dont want to bore you all lol.

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Permalink Reply by laura day on July 9, 2009 at 5:27pm

"same with nh when i ask my horse to move his hindquaters i look at them and think that i want him to move then i walk toiwards his hindquaters then i swing the rope and keep walking and if he dosent move well he happens to be in the way of the rope so he gets hit. But its his own choice if he wants to get hit or not because if he moves he dosent get hit and if he dosent well he gets hit so its his own choice just like in the paddock."

- i would see this as moving away from pressure, or if you do it often, an association with pressure.

If you sit on a pin why do you get off? because it hurts?? no - because it stops hurting when you do! your horse yields because you are appplying pressure (physical or associated) and moves so that it is removed...its rather simple in my mind...then again most things are :-)

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Permalink Reply by Anneke Kloosterman on July 10, 2009 at 2:11pm

Hi Everyone,

Thanks so much for the reactions! Briliant :) I'm glad to know, that I'm not the only one that thinks this way.

Thanks for sharing your story Sissy, it sounds like you are doing very well, good on you!
The phrase, about if we want to be natural with horses, we shouldn't ever touch them and leave them in the fields, was to point out that NH might not have the name it should have. Because everything we do, is everything BUT natural for horses.

I have to say, that I get very frustrated with people, that just are not willing to listen to what their horses really are telling them. It is all about winning, and performing......... big ego's and money....
And actually I feel sad for people like that, because they miss out on so much.. To have a deep connection with every horse I ride and work with, is just the best feeling ever!! Horses are not nasty creatures to begin with, it is how we make them....................

I incorporate my groundwork, into the daily dressage training, and I am having great results with that. Even though, my job is to train and ride the horses for dressage and competitions, I want to bond with them all. They all are special, and all teach me something different.
And again, safety is always the nr 1 rule, when I'm handling young colts, or big 18 hand stallions..... Respect, and Trust

And I love this way of handling for starting youngsters as well!!! In Europe unfortunatelly there is only a small group of people that are into this, and in general people are stand off-ish about this approach. They are very stuck in their own, old ways..... As much as it might seem that things in terms of training are very 'proper' in Europe, in reality it is often very harsh and ruff towards the horses. I don't believe in starting young horses within a few weeks, as to begin with, it is not up to us to decide how long it will take..... Some of these young horses, grow up in groups in the field, untill they are 3. Then when they are 3 they get pulled out, and don't even get the change to adjust to being in a stable, and to people (which they usually don't really know). They get started in work right away, and learn immediately that they should be defensive of people as they associate people with bad experiences.
I have seen this many times, and I always knew there was a better and other way with horses. And I feel blessed to have learned serveral different groundwork methods, that I can now use in my daily job!

Oke, that was quite a book again,
Hope all of you have a good day,

Anneke

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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on July 10, 2009 at 2:54pm

My trainer says that of all his students, I am the best at the groundwork... I'm not saying this to brag, I'm saying this because I really practice and I think it's really important, and I listened to him about how important the liberty work and body language is to the relationship. Why don't more people want the relationship? It stumps me... .. I wish I had even more time.... but riding, is the icing on the cake and I don't want me or my horses to get hurt..... I know of a few ladies in my neighborhood that didn't want to do the work and blew off my trainer.... thinking that he was charging too much and taking too much time with Oliver.. dear Lord my youngin is 4 now, just barely, how fast are we supposed to go? Anyway, she and her 6 year old had an accident out in the wash and the horse perished... I cannot imagine losing my baby because I was rushing.... I have so much to learn to be able to take Oliver safely where he and I are going and lifetime to do it.... :)
Happy walking trails, Jen

Aw, just looking at him makes me realize how important the responsibility is.... he is so awesome. :)