Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Barbara F. on May 2, 2009 at 4:33pm

Did this just start? What happens and at what point?

Permalink Reply by Margaret H. Ostrowski on May 2, 2009 at 4:43pm

He's always been this way; got worse at the previous barn; now he's a little better -- but not much --- I'm thinking I just need to give it a few weeks to have him adjust to the new barn and such; the trainer has been able to ride him pretty well; I have ridden him once since arriving at this barn (with the trainer's help) and it was great --- he was much better last summer --- I was able to ride in shows and everything.......like I said he's always been this way but this time -- I'm the one with most of the issue; just can't bring myself to put the saddle on and tighten up the girth --- I guess I just have to do it and see what happens.....I've read many articles in mags; internet, etc on this subject.....just thought some people could share their personal experiences with me.

Permalink Reply by Barbara F. on May 2, 2009 at 4:48pm

So does he react when the saddle goes on or when the girth is tightened?Or is it when the girth even touches his belly?
If it's when the girth is tightened, you can address the issue by doing it up loosely at first, then walking him around a bit and tightening it one hole at a time. If it happens as soon as the girth touches his belly, then you have to touch his belly with a soft cloth, your hand, a soft brush, etc. until he becomes desensitized. Also, if you could give him treats while he is having the girth done up, he will start to associate the girth with goodies.
Does any of this make sense?
p.s. Some people use a sheepskin cover for their girths.

Permalink Reply by Jenny Hiscox on May 2, 2009 at 5:10pm

I agree with everything Barbara said. But first, just what EXACTLY does he do that frightens you? Turn to bite? Jerk away? Cow-kick?

I will outline what I would do if he was turning to bite when you do up the girth (the treats would be tiny pieces of carrot; about 2" long and quartered. Have a large pouch full of them.):

- attach the girth on the off side, bring it under from the near and let it touch his belly. If he keeps his head straight say "Yes!" drop the girth and do it again.

- if he did react, go back even a step further; just reach under him for the girth. If you can touch it without a reaction touch it, say "Yes!" and give a treat. Then if you had to go back that far, work in baby steps towards letting it touch his belly.

- if you can touch his belly with it, move forward only in very tiny steps, and only when he shows he is ready. Rule of thumb is if he gets it right 9 times out of 10 he is ready to move on.

- the step after touching his belly is maybe pressing his belly with it a little bit

- pull as if to do it up, but not quite that hard yet

- progress VERY slowly, with many repetitions and treats, to the point of doing up on the loosest hole on each side. This could take a week or two! Whenever you get to a point that he is unhappy, back off and finish with the farthest step you can do with him still happy.

I would forget about riding for a little while, until you can get him happy to be saddled up. Also, have you checked with a saddler? Has he changed weight/muscle mass, anything over the winter so that the saddle could have become painful? If you can do any of these steps without a bad reaction, pay very close attention to exactly when he starts to react. Maybe you can figure out what is bothering him.
Oh and BTW, personally I will never use any girth except one that is nice and fluffy and soft, and has elastic on both ends.

Permalink Reply by Margaret H. Ostrowski on May 3, 2009 at 12:06pm

well, all these suggestions I am doing except for slowing it down a lot --- I haven't ridden all winter because of this; I had the trainer at the old barn working with him on Parelli ground manners although this seemed to get him more hyped; he seemed scared; so I stopped doing that when I came to this new barn; he seems to have calmed down some; I have always tightened the girth slowly, walked him around in between -- he's always been "cold-backed"; but other than that he's such a sweetheart and tries very hard once we get over this and actually ride. The saddle was custom-fit for both of us and I just purchased it in January --- it's a County Connection with a County Contour Girth --- he likes this one better than the Passier Anteres I had that I had previously used on him and bought used. The County Rep is to come out and check the fit after I ride in it a number of times; so far I've only ridden in it about 3 times.....oh, BTW he gets this wild look in his eye -- worried look --- and then he starts to try to go forward in the cross ties -- I have to take him off the crossties which leaves me to hold him and then girth him up with the one hand left -- at 55 my reflexes are not that quick; he tends to try to run forward when I tighten the girth.....I'm hoping today I can get on him or at least get the girth tightened some!

Permalink Reply by Jenny Hiscox on May 3, 2009 at 3:47pm

My horse was frightened by the Parelli stuff too. I worked an extra day every week for almost a year to save up for a 4-day Parelli clinic, was so eager, and then it was just awful. Some practitioners are more gentle than others, I think I got the least gentle one and he did not like my horse. For months after that she would still come to me if I had the regular old halter, but run away if I had the Parelli halter with me. I still used some of the stuff I learned, for example the yo-yo game (although I do it at liberty rather than with the rope and halter) and riding with just the halter and one rein (although I do not use the "carrot stick" at all).

Anyway, if it was me I wouldn't aim to tighten the girth for at least several days of playing with it. I would not even think about going to a step that will make him try to move away. Give him some time to develop some confidence that you are not going to do anything he's not comfortable with.

Permalink Reply by Cyndi on May 3, 2009 at 4:08pm

Funny what you said about the Parelli stuff. I found that my horse really doesn't like the carrot stick either. I am always told by Parelli friends that I haven't played enough of the Friendly Game with her, so that's why she doesn't like the carrot stick (she will stand there and let me touch her with the carrot stick, and whack it on the ground, as long as she is haltered and on a lead - if she is at liberty, she will move away from me as soon as I try anything with the carrot stick). I don't know if it's my body language, or what, but even if I try my hardest to stay neutral and look away from her, she will still think she needs to move away from me when she sees the stick. I've never been mean to her with it.

Permalink Reply by Shirley on May 4, 2009 at 1:18pm

So is she sticking by you at liberty without the carrot stick ? My horse used to run off as soon as he was loose for the liberty game when I'd send him off for the circleing game but with a short bit of practice he'd do what I was asking with a twinkle in his eye that he realized we were communicateing! And WOW!! I don't know if he was more excited or me. He still takes off too fast at times when he's full of himself but not usually. We can do the liberty circling game in a large indoor arena (no round-pen) without him taking off but not outside yet.
Is your horse afraid of a crop or lunge-whip also or just the carrot stick? Is she food oriented so having treats on you might help?
Are you still useing Parelli and if you are how far have you gotten with it? I would probably not be able to pass any of the tests to get certified because I'm unlikely to ever be able to do the emergency dismount very fast. If I ever have to dismount in motion, I'm probably going to get hurt so I am trying to get very safe before I head out on unpredictable voyages but I don't think you can prepare for everything....STUFF is gonna happen. But I figure I get in a car everyday not knowing what's going to jump out in front of me to get in an accident. I love riding and just being with and around horses. The comfort and safety zone keep growing.
I'd like to hear more about your horse.
The Parelli "Horse Behavior" package really helps to read a horse and better understand what the horses motivation is in a certain behavoir.

Permalink Reply by Cyndi on May 4, 2009 at 8:58pm

Hi Shirley :o)

The lady I took Parelli lessons from was working on her Level Three, but at that time she was not a certified instructor - she is a retired teacher (retired very young!) who just wanted to share what she knew with others, because she had no one to show her. She spent about four months down in Parelliland this past winter (January to April), and is now a certified "level one" instructor. When I took lessons with her, my goal wasn't to achieve any levels (fear of "exams" - LOL), I just wanted to build a relationship with my horse. There are a lot of things I can do with my horse, that I've learned from my instructor, but I've never had the desire to video myself and send it in to get my level one.

I have never used a crop on my horse, nor have I ever used a lunge whip. And yes (a BIG yes, I might add), my horse is very food motivated!! LOL

My horse, Fanny, will stay with me when I walk into the field. In fact, there are times that she sees my car drive down the driveway and she trots to the gate to wait for me. She wasn't like that at my former barn, but she's like that at our present barn. At the old barn, she was low on the totem pole, but where she is now (with one other mare, who is a loner anyway), she is top dog.

The Circling Game...that's another area where her 'fear' of the carrot stick comes into play. When I first got her, a year ago, I would ask her to circle me, and she'd do it at a walk. It took some convincing to get her to trot. Now...all I do is point with my hand in a direction that I want her to circle, with the carrot stick in neutral in my other hand, and she takes off at a trot which quickly turns into a canter!! She also pulls away as far as she can from me while she's cantering - almost pulling me to the ground. I will drop my eyes, go into "neutral" with my body, and calmly say, "Whoooooa", but she takes a long time before she'll stop. I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.

Fanny is half Canadian Horse and half Newfoundland Pony. She is very much a left-brained horse. Loves to play and do things on her terms. She is a sweetheart of a horse, not mean at all (no biting, nipping, or kicking like a typical left-brained extrovert can be). She is highly intelligent, and super sensitive. She tends to try hard to please, and doesn't want to rock the boat.

She is at a training facility right now. It's someone I'd been taking riding lessons from all winter. He and his wife do natural horsemanship, primarily Parelli, but not exclusively. They are wonderful. I will be attending her training sessions and participating. I'm hoping they show me how to be the right partner for Fanny. I am not a natural-born leader, so I really need to step it up so as not to be walked all over by her.

Permalink Reply by Shirley on May 4, 2009 at 12:51pm

What a terrible story! Did you share this with anyone at the clinic? I mean did you let them know how disappointed you were with such a negative experience? This just should not happen to anyone! Did Amber end up better or worse in the end? It sounds like worse. You sure should be able to get more out of the clinic thien a fear of the rope halter and carrot stick and a at liberty yo-yo game. Were you actually at one of the Parelli bases in Florida or Colorado or were you dealing with an outside person that is certified to teach on their own?
I feel like the home study courses have helped Cash and I a lot. He was a good boy when we started but the Parelli techniques gave us things to work on to gain a better comfort level, a much softer response to moving body parts and taught me a lot about reading the horse. My instincts coincided with their techniques which made me more confident to go the gentler way rather then starting fights. We had gotten to a point where he was bored and starting to act naughty. I was being told by most that I was going to have to cowboy up and fight it out with him and that didn't feel good to me even though I think it might have worked...short term. We have a great relationship, 98% of the time he comes to the gate as soon he hears me at the barn, sometimes he mosseys and sometimes he runs like a racehorse.
Anyway....I hope you got something out of the classes. Going along with the over 40 thoughts that have been shared, today, I could say 'not going there' where as when I was younger i'd have easily been intimidated to do what the 'TEACHER?' told me to do rather then draw attention to myself or cause a confrontation. I had a rough tough lady hauling my horse to a little fun show thing and I thought she was driving rough, lots of jerking that was not necessary cause she wanted to do everything FAST. Thank God it was a very short ride. When we went to unload my horse who was scared when he never had been before (in a trailor) she got instantly annoyed and started yelling at him and getting forceful. I told her to 'STOP It" which wasn't my character but it sure felt good to speak up rather then be 'sweet-one' . I found it was easier to stick up for my kids and my animals and then with time myself. Feels a little late but better late then never! Right?

Permalink Reply by Jenny Hiscox on May 4, 2009 at 2:14pm

I did try to speak to the clinician, a BC based Parelli-licensed person who was giving the 4-day clinic in Monkton, New Brunswick. I'm afraid he snapped at me "You don't have to get all uptight about it!" Which unfortunately made me so uptight that I wasn't able to say any more. They did get the point that I was disappointed, I can tell because they sent a lot of follow-up advertising to all the other participants but not me. As an aside, I notice he is no longer under the Parelli umbrella, but advertises himself as "using the Parelli principles" or something like that.

Amber had been mistreated and become aggressive before I got her, and had been doing incredibly well with me in the year I had had her at the time. Through the clinic she had a severe set-back and lost most of the trust we had spent the year building up. However, with time and patience it came back and we do very well now another seven years later.

As a result of that experience I reject pressure-and-release-based training and for several years have been working with reward only. I mean, when she does something REALLY off the wall, like last summer when she pulled back and snapped the trailer tie I had her tethered to a hitching post with, flew backwards across the barnyard to land sitting on her bum like a dog with her back against the barn wall, causing another horse to spook, dump her teenaged rider and step on her - well, on the rare occasion that she does something like that I do flip out and slap her, but you know, it's not part of the "training" plan! Heh heh.

Actually, we have had incredible success with the positive-only training. She comes running when I call her, even when she is playing with friends or having her head in the round bale, and she very happily does everything I ask of her, giving it all she's got. She is the most wonderful horse you could possibly imagine! She will do pretty much everything from a verbal request, as well as from aids.

Permalink Reply by Barbara F. on May 3, 2009 at 5:04pm

Something does occur to me. That wild look is usually a look of fear in anticipation of pain. I wonder if your horse has a pain in his belly? Ulcers are VERY common, and I've seen horses react to an ulcer-type pain by running forward with that wild look. If it's not ulcers or some sort of internal gut pain, the description of the wild look still suggests fear of coming pain of some sort. I'm not sure what type of pain though. Sorry I can't be more specific.

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