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Am I Just Too Old Fashioned?
I am beginning to wonder about horsemen and horsewomen insisting on "playing" with their horses.
When I started out riding, people did not play with their horses. It was heavily discouraged because it ENCOURAGES DISRESPECT. If you wanted to get your horse fit, you WORKED him properly, schooling him in a well thought out program.
If all a horse does around you is play he starts thinking that he does not have to work at all unless he feels like it.
You have to TRAIN a horse to obey you.
Am I just an old fashioned fuddy-duddy?
When I started out riding, people did not play with their horses. It was heavily discouraged because it ENCOURAGES DISRESPECT. If you wanted to get your horse fit, you WORKED him properly, schooling him in a well thought out program.
If all a horse does around you is play he starts thinking that he does not have to work at all unless he feels like it.
You have to TRAIN a horse to obey you.
Am I just an old fashioned fuddy-duddy?
Tags: play
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on
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I have a very very playful horse... he came that way.... he is mischevious.. I love to play with him. Finally we are enjoying ourselves.... my trainer trains him but shoot man you gotta be serous to get your way with him. ..... I am a four year horse person and my horse is 4..... we are gonna learn tons of things together in the next 30 years..... but work? hell, I do not want to work, LOL... I have a job..... I like Cavalia.... have you ever seen that? or have your ever played it????? it's liberty lunge work.... anyway, regardless of what I do, my horse is a goof ball.... and I gotta deal with that... and no, you are not old fashioned... you just have a vision for what you want for your horses... and that is perfectly alright!! :) I might start playing with my horse and realize it is totally the wrong thing to do... but we are all on our own journey. As long as we understand the desired result, we all have the right to figure out in our own way what is gonna get us there.... I am not good enough of a horse person to really make my horse do anything yet.... so I have no choice but to do some sort of rapport building and for me, I make up games... my own games for me and Oliver... If he gets bratty from it or he has a bad reaction then we can't do that anymore. :( I wish horses were all fun and games, but they certainly are NOT.i
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Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on -
One book you may want to check out is John Richard Young's "Schooling for Young Riders". It is about how a professional horseman decided to write a book about training a difficult horse, got a promising prospect, and then how he dealt with all the horse's issues. It really helped me with my first stud colt.
John Richard Young did not do Natural Horsemanship, just good old cavalry horsemanship. He wrote it DECADES before Natural Horsemanship appeared. I do not know if this book saved my life (it may have), but it sure made dealing with stud colts a lot easier for me.
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what was he doing and how did he help him?
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Permalink Reply by Marti Langley on -
Hi, Fiona, well said!!
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Permalink Reply by Ferrous on -
The discussion here reveals the main thing that does concern me regarding play... there is now "play" as defined by the "Natural Horsemanship" trainers who are currently mainstream. It can be dangerous when horse training is presented in a manner that allows a novice to see training as fun and games. From what I have seen, sometimes there is not enough focus on the need to be vigilant, cautious and assertive... and to ALWAYS maintain clear boundaries. Clarity and consistency is crucial when working with horses. Many methods are also presented as a set progression... these are the steps that you follow, and they will work with any horse. In reality, what works for one horse may not work for another.
I see a number of my friends who are inexperienced with horses fall under the spell of these methods, and romanticize the horse-human relationship. I acknowledge that these methods may work well for many people and many horses, but every training method must be adapted to fit the particular situation. I think that any responsible trainer should emphasize the importance of being cautious, vigilant, and being aware of body language (the horse's and the human's). They should talk more about the subtle communication taking place. It should always be safety, first and foremost.
I may engage in what I consider play with my horse, but I do not "play games" as defined by "Natural Horsemanship". It would not work for my horse. I would never chase him around a round pen... I have used a round pen, but not in that way... because it would not work for my horse. That is the key... knowing one's horse.
I do enjoy liberty work... but I am even more cautious and vigilant when working at liberty, because our communication is wholly dependent on voice and body language. I believe that you should have good communication on the line(s) before graduating to liberty work. A LOT of training has gone into horses like those in Cavalia... there is subtle communication going on, it isn't magic. ;)
I do practice natural horsemanship, because when training I do take advantage of my horse's natural instincts and behaviour, but I do not practice "Natural Horsemanship" because I do not follow anyone's set methodology... I am constantly adapting our training according to my horse's reactions, issues that have come up, etc. It is a dynamic process that I try to keep enjoyable for both myself and my horse... after all, if we are both having fun, then we will both want to be there!
I am smitten with my horse, and so it is important to me to do all that I can to ensure that we have a safe, happy and successful relationship.
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it all depends on where you start I guess... because my horse was orphaned and didn't have anyone to push him around and all that, I did it... me and my horse toby...my trainer, he starts with liberty, then gets the horse on the line... same thing as joining up.... my trainer said the horse is like way keyed in more when the communication is on the line and you have to be really careful where some people start leading a horse around from the time it is a baby..... to each his own I guess..... l, I'm not buying any more stuff or reading any more books.... that has not gotten me outside with my horse which is where I need to be..... all novices are in danger with all programs if you ask me.... horses are dangerous animals.... I have a very strict trainer who has taught me not to make a pet out of them... that is why when I am causing more of a problem for him, I have to back off..... if Oliver sees me as a play toy, and I can't play with him, then oh well, back to mucking and feeding. can't do anything about lack of experience except get some....
I have spent so much money on trainers, reading books, watching videos.... you either have confidence and ability or you don't.... gotta get that by being out with the horse.... I think roundpenning should work for every horse but you do not agree.... so there ya go... different strokes for different folks.
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Permalink Reply by Ferrous on
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I fully agree with the value of experience gained by actually working with your horse... it allows you get to know him and what works for him. From what you say, it sounds like you have an experienced trainer who is compatible with both you and your boy. You also understand that all horses can be dangerous. All of those things will contribute to your success (and safety).
Every relationship with an equine (heck, any relationship between any two living things) has ups and downs. My horse is a delight, but we still have days when I wonder what I have gotten myself into! ;) Sometimes you do have to back up a couple of training steps, and occasionally you have to try a totally new approach to a problem. With patience, human and horse can work through the hiccups, and eventually have a stronger relationship for it because the time was taken to do things right... and in particular, to do what was right for the individual horse. Whether it's giving an aid when in the saddle, doing groundwork, or establishing basic rules... it all comes down to doing the right thing at the right time.
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Permalink Reply by Roberta Edstrom on -
I think that everyone just has different riding and training disciplines. There are so many out there now, they remind me of the next, newest diet plans. What works for one might not work for another. What matters the most are the results. Did it work for you or not? I am glad that the average back yard horse person is getting more educated in a lot of different formats, that is what I think is so cool. The education level is increasing everyday for every horse person which just makes a better life for every horse. Keep the new ideas coming.
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Permalink Reply by Marti Langley on
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One thing I especially like about John Lyons is he always says if something he suggests doesn't work as well as something else, well try the something else. Not all things work for all people or all horses. I have mares, and from my experience I have found, for me, that mares do not like to "play" as much as geldings and studs. Probably because they are not as goofy, lol.
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Permalink Reply by Shirley on -
I can direct my horse to do a lunging circle, change gaits from walk, trot, and canter, stop and go, and change direction with no line attached! How can that be disrespectful!? It's still the same amount of work with what seems to me more respect then with a line attached. For me the play time with a ball or standing on a block or walking a plank or pushing a ball around is all a bonus. He still has to obey when riding or anything else I'm doing with him.
Have you ever seen Linda Parelli or any of their students work a horse in dressage? It's all part of an extended package. Do you know Walter Zettl? Seems most dressage people know him as a master. He does a lesson with Linda at each tour stop for the audience as part of the Parelli Celebration Program.
Many people are seeing a small portion of what some of these programs are all about and forming an opinion from that. Anyone needs to see the full concept to 'get it'. Whenever someone indicates they don't care for Parelli and I ask "why", their reason is given from a misconception of the whole or because someone is making too much money from it. People may emotionally purchase some initial products but they don't continue to buy more products unless they are finding success with the beginning Levels.
It may not be for everyone but it is sure helping alot of people and horses. I do believe some people don't follow the programs closely and end up giving their horses problems and Geoffrey makes more money fixing those problems. Thank goodness some people have Geoffreys to help them out.
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Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on
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Any system can achieve a trained horse. So long the trainer is consistent, uses clear signals, and rewards the horse for obedience progress can be made.
The disrespect I am talking about is when people decide to play with their horse before they even know how to communicate with the horse effectively and the horse learns that obedience is optional.
There are always some people handling horses who think it should be "easy". They look at experienced riders and say to themselves "I can do that easily". They look at liberty work and it looks even easier, and they seem to forget that a REALLY good liberty horse has to go through an equivalent amount of training as a riding horse, if not more. The training is not just to teach signals, it is also to get the horse physically fit enough to do everything their trainer desires. It can take months to build up the muscles enough so that the horse can do the work without harm.
IT IS NOT EASY FOR A BEGINNER TO TRAIN HORSES PROPERLY. I know, that is where I started out. There are many Parelli people who WORK AT IT, and work at STUDYING THEIR HORSES. Like anyone who works hard to learn something they can become extremely effective horsepeople, able to do wonderful things with their horses just like you can Shirley. With enough self-discipline they achieve enough skill so that they and their horses are never harmed.
But some people never seem to get past the word "play", and I get the impression that they think that because they are playing effective discipline would cause their horse to dislike them (by the way I am not talking about any Barnmice people, we work hard at our horsemanship.) They do not want their horses to be reluctant to "play" with them, so they never insist on discipline.
Liberty work might look like play to a person. To the horse I bet it feels like WORK, because if you were not running him around the pen he would just be loafing around. MOST horses need compulsion to work. If you have one of the rare ones who will gladly work without compulsion (which includies holding your body in a threat position), you are truly blessed by the universe.
If your horse obeys you doing liberty work, then you have obviously trained him well. However people forget that liberty work is NOT easier than training to ride. It can take great skill, and I admire anyone who can do it well.
I started this discussion to discuss "playing" with our horses, not against a specific program. With enough work in a logically consistent program horses learn. I do not consider liberty horses to be playing, they are working, and they are working HARD. They are well trained, and this takes time and a lot of hard work. It is NOT something you just go out and do one day as some people who eagerly decide "OH, I can PLAY with my horsie" assume.
As for horsemen who have decades of experience being able to go out and do whatever they want to with a horse--when you have decades of experience you COULD do the same, if you study, work hard, learn to read horses, and be determined to learn from your mistakes. Its not magic, its experience brought by decades of HARD WORK.
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Permalink Reply by Over Fences on -
I've been to Parelli, and many other "natural horsemanship" clinics, I dont have anything against their methods or their products, but like Shirley says, people are seeing only a very small portion of their training program, and from the presentation at the clinic form an opinion good or bad. I would imagine most of the time if your at a Parelli event Its because youre already a follower.
These types of trainers focus on WOW FACTOR, and showing you what amazing things you're horse can do, if only you throw away everything you ever learned of CLASSICAL horsemanship. What we the spectator miss is all the groundwork, and all the traditional methods required to achieve the maneuvers and tricks you see in the ring.The crowds that you see at these places are enormously different from traditional clinic formats. When you attend a Dressage, or Huntseat Clinic as a spectator you wear normal streetclothes and everyone else who doe'snt plan to ride does also.
At these natural clinics, the observers seem to already own all the products, the little sun visor hats, and rhinestone western shirts, riding boots the whole feeling is more product oriented. It truly is a different mood at these events, and it's very commercialized. I dont mind a person making an honest buck, I just prefer Clinics where method and skill are the primary focus.
All of the people I know who are dovoted followers of these type of trainers, have spoiled bratty horses who walk all over them. They believe themselves to be cutting edge trainers, but the reality is their horses perform very cute circus horse type tricks in the arena. But lack any serious work ethic or honesty.
I also think that when you sell an orange Longe Whip, and you rename it a "Carrott Stick" it's plain dishonesty. A Horse Trainer should'nt have to sell whips thats called a tack store.
No Jackie, I dont believe youre too old fashioned. No one has re-invented horsemanship, the way it is is the way it always will be, unless we start riding them facing backwards or something, the time tested methods of CLASSICAL horsemanship will always prevail.
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