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Body language of horses; the calming signals
In the video "Linda Parelli shows how to effectivly hit with the snap" I commented on the horses use of what I call "calming signals". Since there were some interesst in what I wrote I thougth we could talk about it in this forum thread.
I wrote (so I don't have to repeat myself):
Cartoonracher wrote: "When the young woman is trying to back her horse away (under the big tree), he's obviously confused and "over" the whole lesson. He's tuning her out because nothing he's done has been rewarded. It's nothing but non-stop horse-irritating."
I reacted especially to that scene, too. At first the girl is trying to back the horse when he is in front of the tree. Horses don't have good depth perception, especially backwards, so it seems he is asked to back into the tree, something he feels he can't.
After this the horse is seemingly tuning her out, something Linda claims is disrespectful. The sad thing about it is that the horse is NOT tuning her out, the horse is communicating with horse body language that he is not wanting any conflict. I talk about this in my body language clinics a lot, because not many people seems to be aware of the horses
"calming signals".
Horses use these signals when they feel pressured and wants to let the person understand that they perceive them as agitated/aggressive, but that the person can calm down, because they do not pose any threat to them.
Some of the comments here has been about the horse arching away and trying to turn away from the people. What the horse is trying to do is to signal that he's NOT a threat, and by that it's trying to get the person to not be so aggressive. This is the very opposite of disrespect!
The worst thing about the horses calming signals is that it provokes people. People feel ignored and that is for a human a big provocation. Especially when they have been taught that this is a disrespectful sign from the horse! It's a bit off topic here, but I mention it because it's part of the problem with the clip; not only is she using a horrible technique, she is also gravely misreading the horse!
Even a mild correction would have been wrong when the horse is signaling "lets just have peace - I don't wish to fight with you"… if a horse gives you that message and you correct it you are basically telling it "I don't want peace - and I do want to have a fight".
Like I said, it's off topic, but if someone wants me to explain more about these signals I can, we could always make a separate discussion about it.
The horses calming signals is something I haven't written about before although I talk about this in my clinics. There are a couple of reasons for that: one, I don't know how to begin writing about it - in a clinic it comes naturally when a horse displays the signals - and also because I don't know how much people knows about this already. In Scandinavia, where I live and teach, I know that my students says that this is news to them, but for all I know this is common knowledge in Canada :)
Another big reason is that what I am talking about goes against what most trainers believe in, and rocks the foundation of what many people consider natural horsemanship. I think...
Last, but not least; it is a big topic... so to write about it is a big task, but I will do so if I see that people truly are interessted in what I am talking about :)
That is why I want this to be in a discussion form, to get a grasp of what you know about this already, and also to be able to show some video clips to show you what I am talking about.
To not make this text too long I think it's a good idea if I write seperate posts about the different signals. That way I can add on information as I see what people have questions about :)
I wrote (so I don't have to repeat myself):
Cartoonracher wrote: "When the young woman is trying to back her horse away (under the big tree), he's obviously confused and "over" the whole lesson. He's tuning her out because nothing he's done has been rewarded. It's nothing but non-stop horse-irritating."
I reacted especially to that scene, too. At first the girl is trying to back the horse when he is in front of the tree. Horses don't have good depth perception, especially backwards, so it seems he is asked to back into the tree, something he feels he can't.
After this the horse is seemingly tuning her out, something Linda claims is disrespectful. The sad thing about it is that the horse is NOT tuning her out, the horse is communicating with horse body language that he is not wanting any conflict. I talk about this in my body language clinics a lot, because not many people seems to be aware of the horses
"calming signals".
Horses use these signals when they feel pressured and wants to let the person understand that they perceive them as agitated/aggressive, but that the person can calm down, because they do not pose any threat to them.
Some of the comments here has been about the horse arching away and trying to turn away from the people. What the horse is trying to do is to signal that he's NOT a threat, and by that it's trying to get the person to not be so aggressive. This is the very opposite of disrespect!
The worst thing about the horses calming signals is that it provokes people. People feel ignored and that is for a human a big provocation. Especially when they have been taught that this is a disrespectful sign from the horse! It's a bit off topic here, but I mention it because it's part of the problem with the clip; not only is she using a horrible technique, she is also gravely misreading the horse!
Even a mild correction would have been wrong when the horse is signaling "lets just have peace - I don't wish to fight with you"… if a horse gives you that message and you correct it you are basically telling it "I don't want peace - and I do want to have a fight".
Like I said, it's off topic, but if someone wants me to explain more about these signals I can, we could always make a separate discussion about it.
The horses calming signals is something I haven't written about before although I talk about this in my clinics. There are a couple of reasons for that: one, I don't know how to begin writing about it - in a clinic it comes naturally when a horse displays the signals - and also because I don't know how much people knows about this already. In Scandinavia, where I live and teach, I know that my students says that this is news to them, but for all I know this is common knowledge in Canada :)
Another big reason is that what I am talking about goes against what most trainers believe in, and rocks the foundation of what many people consider natural horsemanship. I think...
Last, but not least; it is a big topic... so to write about it is a big task, but I will do so if I see that people truly are interessted in what I am talking about :)
That is why I want this to be in a discussion form, to get a grasp of what you know about this already, and also to be able to show some video clips to show you what I am talking about.
To not make this text too long I think it's a good idea if I write seperate posts about the different signals. That way I can add on information as I see what people have questions about :)
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Megan Hammock on
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Jennifer, I sort of do that when Kai is bossing Donoma around.. If I see her getting ready to be rude, I'll get Kai's attention, or calmy but assertively intercept her "advance" and make her move away.. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes, Kai will look at me before she gets too far with bossing Donoma around and she'll just look at me like "Is this OK? Should I stop?" and she'll stop if I "ask" her to (it only takes a look)..
Is that sort of what you're talking about? That'll help Donoma trust me?
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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on
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It might help her trust that you are paying attention and willing to control the situation... :)
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Permalink Reply by Marlene Thoms on
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Oh brother, tough love. Is she a delinquent? If it's just a matter of either you need clear signals, more time to teach, or help on how to get her to understand, these are things you can work on. How about "firm love"? You ask, she responds, you shape the behavior in the direction you want. Who cares if gentle methods take a little longer? Horses are pretty forgiving when we don't get our training techniques quite right, so why can't we forgive when they don't catch on right away? Sometimes my Guy isn't cooperating perfectly all the time, or trying to get out of doing something, but with persistence, or a little different approach, he generally comes around. I look at overall progress, not just what we accomplished in one day. I am learning too, so if his progress isn't stellar it's probably something I didn't teach well enough yet.
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Permalink Reply by Cyndi on
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I agree that gentle methods take more time, and I'm willing to take the time. I've had a couple of people tell me that I just need to get on my horse more often and ride. But part of me feels that we have more work to do on the ground, and I'm okay with that. Others don't understand.
The other day, after that wonderful time I had with my super mellow mare, I decided to get on her bareback, with just her halter on and the lead rope tied to make reins. She stood still for me to get on, and then I just sat there and let her do whatever she wanted to. She chose to stand. And stand. And stand. But you know what? I kept on petting her and before too long she started yawning those great big "I am letting stress go and relaxing" yawns. Later on I did ask her to walk toward the entrance of the arena, and she responded brilliantly to my leg cues, and when I asked her to stop, she did it perfectly. I felt that was a good time to end for the day. That's the kind of "just get on her and ride" that I like doing, not the kind where you kick and pull to "make" her do what you want her to do.
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Awesome... that just seems like it will lead to more and more comfortable riding...
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Permalink Reply by Sarah Siler on
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Since that type of "just get on her and ride" is what suits you...then do it. My Aussie friend say that if it's fun, then do it...if it's not fun...then WHY do it? The more often you have fun with her, like you have described, the more fun it will be for her when you saddle up and ride, JMO of course.
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I keep telling myself that I will feel like getting on.. and then Oliver and I both will have fun... right now we just have fun doing other stuff... these other exercises might just be called foundation.... woohoo!! having fun is what it is all about... yesterday I had fun video taping them and seeing if I could get them to talk.... we didn't know we weren't doing something cool... :)
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Marlene, I do think there is SOME progress at least.. I can stand a little closer without her jetting, but she still looks incredibly apprehensive with us around. Her ears are mostly back (not pinned) and she will stretch her neck as much as she can so her body doesn't have to get close.. Still won't let us touch her (unless there are oats or treats involved, but that's still with protest.. Then she has this air of "I love this.. I hate this.. I love this.. I hate this.." VERY nervous, but seems to WANT to like it..
Can't really tell if I'm just getting my hopes up, or if she's starting to warm up a little..?
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Oops. In case someone is new to this discussion and reads Marlene's response (above) about "tough love", it was originally a reply to something I said about some advice I'd been given, to show my mare some "tough love". I deleted the original post of mine because I had said something negative about someone and I didn't feel right leaving it posted :o)
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omgosh they are so cute together.... I think they are just checking it out.... I bet they end up really good friends... my horses are together all the time..... I learned from my elder gelding that he pushed my baby around.... but that Oliver, my baby, he doesn't really try very hard..... and they are very good friends... from this video I got the impression that neither one of them are very interested in being the aggressor... over by the trailer they stand with their heads down.... one is pushing the other one around but they calm down right away and I get the feeling they will both end up being very calm once they realize that they are of not threat to one another..... in my fear of my young horse because he was so wild I innavertently caused him to try and bully me... when I slowed down my energy he started to follow me.... aw, Oliver.
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Man, I'll bet your heart just melted when he started following you.. :)
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Hi Megan... Oliver has always been close to me but he wanted to push me around since he was a baby I think..... an over curious orphan who had no mama to boss him I had to really learn to get him to follow without trying to push me.... sometimes when he follows he still tries to sort of put pressure on me, I can feel it.... so I've been learning more and more to easily push him out of my space with my energy and that he must back up if I feel him pushing me... this is where we are right now and it is painstakingly slow work...... but he's starting to "think back" now because I taught him "back up Oliver"... I see him slowing down and thinking about not pushing on me... and I have to go back to driving him more to push him from behind too... that is what we are working on this month.... he is easy to work by working on his nose.... it melted my heart when he started following because at first he was jumping on me or being very overly boisterous... I actually had to push him away a little to get him to follow...
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