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Do you think that the definition of GOOD HORSEMANSHIP has changed since you began to ride?
When I started educating myself about horsemanship in Northern Virginia in the early 1960's among the many authors I read in the English field (hunt seat and dressage) there was a pretty consistent definition of good horsemanship. Though I was not as familiar with Western riding there seemed to be a consistent definition of good horsemanship in Western riding also.
Now many people appear to think that many previously "forbidden" practices are good. Are you as confused as I am? Do you agree with the newer practices? If so, how have they helped you in comparision to the old ways of good horsemanship?
Now many people appear to think that many previously "forbidden" practices are good. Are you as confused as I am? Do you agree with the newer practices? If so, how have they helped you in comparision to the old ways of good horsemanship?
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Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on
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On one Western training video I saw, the guy described a rein aid (indirect) in almost the same words as the Duke of Newcastle did in his book (including the way to turn the hand and where to take it). I see a lot of the Duke of Newcastle's techniques, and quite a few of Baucher's techniques (especially flexions) in these modern Western training videos, only on horses which keep their heads WAY down. What I do not see is the Western riding I used to see as a child, when the horses were allowed to have their polls at or above the heighth of the withers, and that was considered correct, and where the horses looked like they might actually have some forward impulse instead of none.
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I had reschooled my horse for a few years before I tried putting him on the bit. From Udo Burger's book and from the Anatomy of Dressage I had finally learned what I had been doing wrong in my previous attempts. When I applied the hand/leg aids correctly his back went down a little behind my seat, his back came up some, his fore hand felt somewhat higher, his neck flowed up to the poll, where it flexed, and his contact became very responsive and felt sort of springy. If I remeber correctly his stride also shortened a little.
Since my horse was over twenty, with sickle/cow hocks, and I was not riding him enough to get his muscles fit enough to go into more collected riding I never repeated it. It was the first time I had gotten this response, all the other times I had tried I had gotten a stiff jaw, neck and back, with no elevation in front and no sinking a little behind the saddle.
Shortly thereafter my MS worsened considerably and my horses stopped keeping contact with my hands due to my tremor and quickly worsening balance. But it is a golden memory of when I finally got it right, with my first horse.
I am not trying to vilify all dressage people. Occasionally I see a rider that I would consider for training a horse for me if I ever had the time and money for such a luxury. But the only reason I thought my horse's training would not be ruined by this lady was that I had seen the teacher teach/train around twenty times, and I had never seen her try to rush a horse, and the horses at the stable that got the lessons/training sessions from her stayed calm.
But as I went through the layers of resistances, it was pretty obvious what had come from being ridden by a teen-age girl (mostly getting really antsy if I carried a crop and wanting to gallop madly,) what had come from the professional trainer he got sent to for a short while (I assume he was approved by the teacher, but I am not sure), these involved a certain tendency to bring his head up with his nose sort of in and rapidly switch his weight to the hind-quarters, especially for a turn on the hindquarters. This time I asked at a walk, gave the aid with my leg (with light contact), and the horse then scrambled around FAST, with this little bounce of the forehand whenever both his hind legs were planted on the ground.
The ones in the mouth, which I suspect come from trying to achieve collection, were a certain stiffness of the jaw and tongue which I had not felt from this horse for years. I had to be REAL careful not to incite this stiffness, which came mostly when I would use a lightly fixed hand for the rein aids. When I went back to the more primitive give and take the stiffness would disappear. Before he was ridden by the dressage riders I had gotten good enough with my hands so I had no problems with soft responses to a fixed hand, immediately released.
This horse was to be a confidence builder, a fun horse to ride until this lady decided to get a better conformed horse. He was by no means perfect, but I got prompt responses to my reins (with a closed mouth, I did not use a noseband) whether the contact could be measured in grams or pounds. These people were fully appraised of his training and abilities, but, as usual in my experience, since I do not ride dressage or a dressage influenced seat the people assumed I knew nothing and rode him their way which ended up causing stiffness in his mouth and a cramming up of his neck, which meant that he would never go on the bit properly. Could another dressage rider have done better? Probably, in fact a REAL good dressage rider would not have ruined him (I hope) and may have made him a more pleasant horse to ride.
It was not hard to bring my horse back to a reasonable ride as long as I rode like I did before his experiences, and after a few months he remembered the joys of reaching for contact, coming back softly to the hand, and accepting the legs. I just had to be careful never to fix my hands when giving aids, which was too bad because he had been calmly responsive to that before. After I got him back, even fixing my hands momentarily would get him excited, prancing, and moving in a disorganized manner instead of his previous calm small flexion of the jaw. When I wanted to ride above a low intermediate level (in the For. Seat) I had to ride my other horses, who were as unforgiving of bad riding as anyone wanting to improve their riding could ever hope for.
I was judging the results on Calmness, Acceptance of the Aids, Forward Impulse, Regularity of the steps of the gaits, and Willingness to Move. I got it all back, but at a low-intermediate level instead of a high intermediate level. He still gave me some great rides, but I missed the old times when we were moving on contact and I could just move my body a little bit and he was there, doing exactly what I wanted him to (as the lady said--it was like he read your mind.)
I've talked about this with my riding teacher, who has some tales of her own of retraining horses who had been subjected to bad dressage, from riders who look for quick fixes so their horses look good enough to show. My teacher did study dressage for a while with the best teacher she could find, and uses it effectively in her training when she needs to, and can catalogue the faults in training of these mistrained horses in detail, because she does know how a good dressage horse is supposed to move, at least in the lower levels.
Good dressage, with the necessary hard work with a suitable horse, I'm all for it and sort of wish I did not have MS so I could learn. But as it is I ride as well as I can, aiming for cooperation from the horse using gentle aids.
Seperately--what do you think about horses being trained in "collection" at the age of three? Is it really possible, with correct schooling and riding on a suitably conformed horse, to get correct collection at that young an age?
Thank you again for this wonderful discussion.
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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on
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I just started.... :) I think my awesome trainer, most of the people I've met in the last 6 years on line, and the trainers I am reading from are all awesome.... I get it.... the one thing I can say about myself is that I try to act like I am a kid... I just go slow and hang out with my horses because in any day and age, we truly learn from them..... :)
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About the "fixed hand". What I am trying to describe is a slight stiffening of my fingers, which has a "fixed" feel in comparision with my usual "my hands (and fingers) belong totally to the horse's mouth" contact. I apologize if I should have used another term. There is still movement in my fingers, just not as much as when I do not "catch" the energy.
After I got him back I had no problem with a "fixed hand" when I used my ancient jumping cavesson (like a side-pull). Then my horse would happily change his neck/back, and move better, with more impulsion coming into my hands, which I then "received" and directed. And yes, his impulse was stronger, MUCH stronger when he got excited about something, and I had to make my seat much deeper to ride it. VERY exhilarating to ride, especially without being able to use a bit for modulation. Jumping cavessons are not very subtle.
My opinion was based on what the lady told me of why she felt she could no longer progress with this horse, and when I got him back I verified that she was right, this horse no longer cooperated with this alternating of impulse when in a snaffle, he would jam his neck and fix his jaw, becoming upset, just like he did the first few years I rode him. If this lady (the rider) had not given me a detailed report of HOW my horse had stopped progressing, I would have automatically blamed myself.
The horses I saw the teacher teach/train were young, late 3, 4 and 6 years old, in the first few months of dressage training (both horse and rider), which is why I remarked on their calmess. They also moved with greater fluidity compared to how they had moved before under saddle at the sitting trot, backs swinging and legs moving freely compared with the previous stiff backs and choppier strides.
Thank you for your response about collection. I had not seen these horses being ridden in collection, just heard people boasting about their 3 or 4 yr. old horse going into collection right away.
The vast majority of people I would not want to train my horse do not ride dressage. I should have made this clear, and included Hunt seat (inc. FS) Western and Saddle Seat. My present teacher (not a FS rider) would be my first choice right now because she is very good.
Finally I wish to apologize for offending you in my report. My brain and spinal cord seem to be going through some changes yet again, and it has caught me by surprise. One of many symptoms is serious foot in mouth disease. I will try extra hard not to use inflammatory words. Please forgive me.
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Permalink Reply by Barbara Ellin Fox on
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The call for good horsemanship has been increasing in the past few years. I come from about the same generation as Jackie and I love the basic foundations of good riding and horse care. Our whole society has changed so much in the past 45 years. Just in general life there are a lot of practices accepted now that used to be forbidden. Just look at how people talk to one another.... I think the thing that has hurt the horse world most was when it became so commercial and shows became the most important goal. That's when quick fixes and short cuts became plentiful and we began to lose sportsmanship.
I remember when a person riding in Medals and MacClays sought to have a great automatic release. Now Medal winners rely on the crest release. I remember when western horses were allowed to hold their heads high enough to see where they are going, now they go with their heads between their knees or their noses on the ground, thanks to draw reins used on curb bits or other practices that are in humane. And I remember when dressage was an art in the US rather than an industry. Making it become an industry has given us some atrocious short cuts and aggressive training methods. A while back a rep from one of the more famous bit companies told me a certain very famous rider had sent a curb bit back because the shanks had bent during riding...... I think we're talking a little more than pounds or ounces in each rein here.
But some good things have developed in horsemanship. More people are riding for pleasure, more folk are learning the humane round pen methods, and the Tennessee Walking horse no longer has acid poured on its pasterns.
I have no trouble with pink breeches, synthetic saddles, and lots of bling. And some of the advances in learning methods are terrific. I'd just like to see the good things from the old combined with the good things from the new. We have the potential of forming better partnerships and enjoying our sport more than ever before
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Wonderful response. Thank you.
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I decided to do my own thing and see what my horses will do for me...... I just started learning 5 years ago and I was getting way confused..... I let my horses be the teachers now.
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Hi, I'm back. This is in response to various comments from sic2.
Rearing: My horse did not rear, he bounced on his forehand with his weight switched dramatically to his hind-quarters. This CAN be the first step to a rear, especially if a rider inadvertently rewards it. I knew this horse well, he would give a clear statement of where he would go, he would give me several chances to improve, if I did not improve he would go to the next step. etc.. He was giving me a signal that something was wrong, and with what I felt when we tried the turn on the hindquarters was that both his back AND his hind legs had not been developed enough to do this movement correctly while in a more collected frame.
I immediately worked to strengthen his back and hindquarters by repeatedly going up and down a rather steep hill on one of the trails. I kept in two-point going both up and down-hill, and used loose reins except when I had to rate his speed. We always walked down-hill. Uphill I started at a walk, and over several months got up to trotting uphill at a fast trot up to three times in one day. I did this three times a week, weather permitting. By the time I asked my horse to go on the bit he was MUCH stronger in the back and hind-quarters than when I tried that turn on the hind-quarters, quite strong enough to do the five or six strides on the bit, at which point I felt his right hind becoming tired and I extended him out and we had a normal trail ride. I did not get much further than this due to the fact that two months later a drunk driver plowed into my car head on, causing soft tissue injuries that took about two years to resolve and triggering an MS attack which went on for 9 years before it was correctly diagnosed and treated.
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Permalink Reply by J.Everheart on
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Jackie, I'm confused when you say you were told you weren't "good enough" to do dressage. (Sic, you may want to jump in here as well.) I understand dressage to be a style of riding, different from Western or hunt seat, but you can start riding dressage as a complete beginner. You would just learn from the beginning to ride in the dressage style, with a longer leg, a more upright seat than hunt seat, etc... You may not be naturally gifted, but anyone can take dressage lessons and try to learn. This is what I'm doing right now!
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I agree that if I did not have MS that I would be able to BEGIN to learn dressage. However I have several symptoms that are extremely irritating to the horse (a tremor in my hand, lack of a sense of balance both forward and back and side to side, total lack of a proprioceptive sense [I cannot "feel" where the various parts of my body are], lack of natural coordination, etc.) that REALLY interfere with good riding, and would, at some point, sooner rather than later, guarantee that my dressage progress would come to a complete halt. Not only that, but it would be bad for the horse's training to try and adapt to me.
If my MS would completely stabilize it might be different, but every day my physical ability, skin sensitivity, balance, coordination, and even eyesight can vary considerably and unpredictably. There are days where I literally have to start over at the beginning as far as position is concerned. Wednesday my teacher was working on my heels, I could not really feel that they were not down, and keeping my pelvis following the movement of the back.
Not a recipe for successful dressage.
My wonderful riding teacher, Debbie, uses me on abandoned horses that she is trying to fit in her lesson program, since I have a unique combination of varying physical KLUTZINESSES combined with the knowledge of how to get the horse to obey without upsetting the horse. (I hope that made sense.) I can definitely help get a horse used to less than perfect riders since I am so imperfect physically.
There are people with MS who are successful with dressage. But there is a thing about MS--everybody with it basically has a different disease, which affects the body differently. For instance one of my problems is that I drop reins without noticing it. It doesn't happen all the time, but it often happens when I concentrate on my legs, my seat, my balance, etc.. The less I have to think about, the more able I am to keep my reins in my hands. Basically I do not have the brain capacity to coordinate everything that has to go right for a good dressage performance. The more I try to do at once the worse I ride.
I am just happy that I can ride older Arabs with Debbie. They (the Arabs) are real quick to gently tell me when I start irritating them too much. This helps me avoid falling into bad habits with my aids and helps ensure that I do not hurt the horses. I would not try to ride a young Arab though, I would be too confusing.
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Of course the FS seat is not useful for dressage. The legs drape differently around the horse's barrel, the hands are in different places, the torso is not vertical (except when needed) and the seat is not back in the center of the saddle. Also the theories of FS control and training have big differences with those used in dressage. FS and dressage are two different systems of riding with different goals for both the horse and rider.
This does not mean that I think that one is more "correct" than the other. There is nothing superior to a deep and supple dressage seat to ride horses in collection. In my opinion (and many people do not agree with me) there is nothing superior than the FS for riding an extended horse at speed cross-country and over jumps, or for keeping a horse calm and moving with low, long striding and energy conserving gaits at slower speeds. Different goals, different seats, both correct for their different purposes.
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There seems to be this misperception in the general horse community that since dressage horses do not go FAST and because the rider's seat stays in the saddle, that dressage is suitable for "weaker" people, irregardless of HOW a person may be weak. Some weak people may be able to do dressage some, using other strengths (say good balance, good coordination, endurance, etc.) to compensate for weakness, but it takes a lot of riding.
I have absolutely no hope of ever being able to develop an effective dressage seat. It just takes too much HARD physical work. To be completely honest, I NEVER had the ability to develop a good dressage seat. That is just the way my life went.
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