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The Thoroughbred horse off the track
Good or bad for breeding riding horses (Quarter horses, jumpers, dressage horses, etc.)?
I have come here to find out as much as I can on this subject.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on
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Be forewarned that you HAVE to go through all the stuff in the first part of his book to truly understand what he is saying when he talks about the jumpers/warmbloods. WB's were good horses back then, but they did not have quite the fashion cachet they do now, even though they were winning in Europe like they do now. I think their main competition back then was the TB and what I consider the English WB (existing long before the European WB), what they called Half-breds, 3/4 breds on up back then. The bred was always understood as TB. The English had some good carriage and drover stock back then, the Cleveland Bay (barely hanging on), Hackney, and the Yorkshire Trotter (I think this breed is extinct) for example. The heavy weight hunters were of TB blood crossed with drafter blood or the heavy coach horses.
It is just that us English speaking folk seem to have a deep desire to breed horses as we, not the governments, see fit. The European system seems to produce better conformed horses (breeding away from conformation faults) while the English speaking breeders seem to think that performance is enough proof of breeding fitness.
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Permalink Reply by Elles Prins on
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Well in a way I think breeding too much for conformation can keep some wonderful horses outside the system. But sometimes the warmblood studbooks do approve a stallion later on in his life when or after having a very good sports career.
Like in the Quarter horse breed most TB's can be used for breeding and get appendix papers. When these horses have earned enough points in performance disciplines they get "full" papers. The only difference between the rights of an appendix QH and a QH with "full" papers is the fact that the first one may not be crossed with a TB. However after earning enough points it is allowed to cross it with a TB. The offspring will get appendix papers but after earning enough performance points it also gets a full paper, etc.
What I just don't understand is that people in English speeking countries are all importing lots of warmblood horses from Holland, Germany and France while they have this tremendous stock of bloodhorses. I hesitate to believe that all these bloodhorses are not riding horse/sport horse material. Because if your look here Holsteiner studbook you see that the Holsteiner studbook has for example approved the TB Cyrkon and Ibisco and the 97%TB Fidelio du Donjon.
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While the USA had a cavalry we had a Remount Service, and the US Cavalry and Ag Dept. stood TB, Arab, Morgan and other decent stallions. When the Cavalry was disbanded so was the Remount Service, though their registry (1/2 & up TB and used to be Anglo-Arab) still survives. Many ranchers out West used these Remount stallions because the cavalry provided a market for the medium quality riding horses and the real good ones would be kept or sold to private buyers. No Cavalry, no large market for the medium quality riding horse or artillery horse.
I remember coming back to this country 48 years ago and how miserable the conformation of the usual pleasure riding horse was. To see a "good" horse you had to go to the blood horses, TB for hunter and Arab and Morgan for normal pleasure riding, or to the barns of the ultra rich. At that time the mania for 16 hands or higher was picking up speed. The American Warmblood breeds (Quarter horse, Morgan, American Saddlebred, Standardbred, Tennesse Walker and others) did not tend to go 16 hands or higher, and the American TB was just as likely to be below that magic heighth as above it.
The jumps look lower if your horse is tall.
Then came the car. The riding horse was always a luxury on the East Coast, now it became a useless luxury suitable only for the wealthier members of society. Western horses still hang on some as useable animals. The breeders of small horses, desperate for a market turned to color, beauty, action (high trots), and whichever conformational defect that became fashionable and rewarded at the shows (QH--small hooves), all the time trying to breed their horses up to 16 hands.
US horses show more quality nowadays. Most are under 16 hands though.
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I am just reading on the KWPN (the Dutch warmblood studbook) website and I read that quite a number of KWPN horses are sold to America because people like them for hunter competion. That seems to confirm what you are saying about hight. However the AQHA also has quite a number of tall hunter horses.
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If you can find a 16 hand QH with normal sized hooves it is a good start. However with the QH massive heavy muscles I would want a bigger than normal hoof to absorb the forces when landing over a jump. The QH halter people got really into really, really tiny hooves (shoe size 0?) so I would avoid most halter champions in the pedigree. This is something I learned from Dr. Rooney's book "The Lame Horse" published around 30 years ago, he wrote that the QH breeders had caused horrible harm to some of the nicest horses he had ever handled.
Americans have a tendency to get distracted by minor details, and then to take these details to extreme expression, often ruining the breed while they get championships and blue ribbons with their now badly conformed animals. Often they also burden their breeding stock with previously unknown genetic diseases that are linked to the current phenotype ideal, and with in-breeding and line-breeding to strenthen the new show ring winning conformation paradigm they eventually ruin a large percentage of the breed. Sad but true.
IF I was into modern competition dressage I would probably look into an American Saddlebred Horse, IF I could find one with a decent heart girth, decent sized joints, and balanced conformation. I would probably have to settle for a horse with a not-so-pretty head and some conformation faults, but I would have the big high fluid trot that seems to be necessary to win at dressage nowadays.
Just my opinions here, I don't know if anyone else would agree with me.
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I think that type of trot is (should not be) so much genetics but also the collection of the horse while riding. When collecting a horse the strides and movement become more bouncy (the legs are lifted higher) and less flat and extended.
I have loads of books about QH's and have seen my share of QH's in The Netherlands and I think you are right about the breed having been changed. In the past there was this wonderful and sometimes quite tall race horse type or multi purpose type. Nowadays the horses are either very small or they have conformation flaws/genetic flaws like the ones you talk about.
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ASB 3-gaited and 5-gaited horses compete with their heads up, flexed at the poll, driven into the bridle, and squatting down a little on their hind ends (or they use to be before rollkur etc.), not true classical collection for sure but it sure gets the high action out of horses who are bred for airy high trots. Plus ASBs used to be bred for more endurance than the QH.
Look at me defending the ASBs! I don't particularly like the breed, I prefer small compact horses like the Arab and old time Morgan (not QH). But the ASBs could be an alternate source for the Turkomen type ranginess that breeders have used the TB for, the ranginess that increases heighth and stride length. QH's were developed as small muscular horses, any ranginess comes from recent TB crosses.
I am enjoying our discussion, I wish others would comment too!
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I enjoy the discussion as well.
In 2008 I went on Holiday to America (first time, normally we go to Greece or the UK). We went to Kentucky because of the horses, we also went to the ASB museum near Lexington. I love the type of horse but sometimes the showing of these horses really gets over the top. With the hightened forefeet.
I have been to Ireland a few times and one rode a 7/8 TB in the countryside. A wonderful horse. I love many types of horses. For a while a had a Gelderlander Anglo Arab cross. I have been a horselover since I was about five years old and have seen my share of all types and kinds of horses and every horse has it advantages and disadvantages depending on it's purpose. But I like most breeds as long as the individual does not have too bad flaws.
I am glad I can read English, German and French because that way I can learn as much as possilbe about horses abroad ;-).
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Permalink Reply by vickie lawson on
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here in new zealand the off the track tb mare is used a lot for riding in all areas, and breeding. the german hanoveian society recognises them as hanoverian broodmares (after inspection). i have 2 youngsters out of a tb mare by a licenced hano stallion. they are not tall, but the mare was only 16hh. they are lovely in conformation though and temperament. i recommend you give it a try.
i am using the oldest one (now 5 yrs) for dressage and showing. i broke her in at 2 1/2 with no issues. i ride at the beach and forest, often alone. the younger one is 3yrs and he too has been a sweetie to break in and back. no problems. but then a lot of that comes from their early associations i think. and less from their breeding.
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In my latest post I mentioned the museum in the Kentucky horse park but I was mistaken it was the Tenessee Walking horse museum.
Hello Vickie, do you have a website or pictures of your horses? What type of TB blood have you used?
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Hello Jackie,
I think this is a nice website Sport horse recipe, look at the picture of that incredibly beautiful Irish Draught horse.
On that website I read the following: "They have found that to not periodically inject more Thoroughbred or a light saddle source will result in them reverting back to the heavy coach-farm form and they become too heavy, slow and un-agile to win."
I have been thinking about that a lot and I am wondering if that is true. How can we be sure it is true or not?
This is Totilas that lots of people are crazy about at the moment. I do like his type! It might be Farn that gave him his beautiful silhouette or maybe Tobias or both of them. Or maybe a horse like Impuls or maybe even this guy Camillus.
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Thank you for the Sport Horse site. I read Tesio's book decades ago, so I am glad his legacy continues!
I think the three breedings in breed and one breeding hot-blood outcross comes from hundreds (or thousands) of years of breeding horses. Hot bloods bring in riding qualities, not draft or coach qualities which are quite different.
The site mentioned the Standardbred. There is another reason for using a Standardbred outcross, since the breed has allowed artificial insemination for decades there has been unavoidable closs breeding. Not necessarily good for within a breed but it tends to bring more hybrid vigour into the cross, and it can increase prepotency, more of a guarantee of what you see is what you get. Just look out for the high hindquarters, useful for speed at a trot or pace.
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