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Baroque Horses

This is a group for Baroque Horse owners. These are Andalusians, PRE, Lusitanos, Friesans and Lipizzaners, or crosses. Please post a message if you own one and what kind of a discipline you are currently doing.

Members: 62
Latest Activity: Oct 28, 2013

Discussion Forum

Dominique Barbier Clinic - Nov 2,3 and 4th

Started by Pam Dawson Sep 13, 2012.

Looking for PSG Andalusian 4 Replies

Started by Pam Dawson. Last reply by Susana Rodriguez Feb 14, 2012.

Self Catered Individual Riding Holiday in Portugal

Started by Misti Seppi Feb 8, 2012.

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Comment by Susana Rodriguez on February 13, 2012 at 2:26am

Andalusian horse

The Andalusian horse is a breed of horse native Spanish Andalusia. It is a baroque type Iberian horse that is among the oldest horse breeds in the world. In Spain also commonly known as "Spanish horse" and is officially called "Pure Spanish" (PRE), because it is considered that the Spanish Andalusian horse is par excellence, although there are many other Spanish horse breeds. However, in most countries is called "Andalusian Horse". [1] The Carthusian horse is one of the most important breeding lines of this breed.

Throughout history the Andalusian horse has been instrumental in the formation of European and American horse breeds such as the Hispano-Arab horse, [2] Hispano-Breton, [3] Frisian, the Lipizzaner, the Kladruber, [4] Creole, fine pitch, [5] the Peruvian Paso, the mustang, the Real Alter and Lusitano.


Since ancient horses of Andalusia were very popular in the Roman circus and have had great fame. In the Middle Ages, in the current Andalusia had so many horses that Abderramán I sure gave 780 AD and peace to the Mozarabic Granada by a covenant that required them to pay annually 10,000 ounces of gold, 10,000 pounds of silver, 10,000 heads of the best horses. [6] During the Caliphate of Córdoba was very important to the stud of the court of the Umayyads and the stud of Almanzor and Berber horsemen. There are reports of the stud of the caliph Alhaken due to chronic disease in which Ibn Ziyad Aflah, groom of the caliph and zalmedina of Madinat al-Zahra, praises the quality of foals each year focused on the almunia Amiriya, from weaning of the most of 3000 mares that had the caliph in the marshes, along with 500 stallions, a clear parallel with the back Out of the mares.
Given the quality of the horses in the south of the Iberian Peninsula from the thirteenth to the nineteenth century the kings established the prohibition of cross mares with asses, in Andalusia, Extremadura and Murcia, establishing a "real line" south of which miscegenation was forbidden from horses, to preserve its purity.

The Kingdom of Córdoba was especially famous for its horses. In it there were two lineages dedicated to breeding. The Mexia, lords and earls of Santa Eufemia then, were famous breeders from the reign of Ferdinand and Isabella, highlighting in gray horses breeding. Don Rodrigo Old Mexia provided horses to King Charles I between 1520 and 1530 and taught by royal mandate to the governors of Castile his learned farming from his father Don Gonzalo. On the other hand were renamed the horses "Guzman" or "Valenzuelas" which had its origin in a stallion bought Berber Luis Manrique, of the Order of Calatrava in Cordoba, a certain Guzman.Manrique's death, his horses passed through the hands of Martin Fernandez de Cordoba Ponce de Leon, grandson of the Count of Cabra, who gave the herd to the Great Captain who, in turn, left to Juan Valenzuela, whose family remained until aquirida by Luis Gomez de Figueroa. This stud decayed beyond repair during the War of Spanish Independence. In this line of breeding horses owned the Duke of Osuna, the Duke of Arcos, the Count of Medellin and the Duke of Medina Celi, among other magnates.

In the sixteenth century Philip II commissioned Diego Lopez de Haro y Sotomayor, I Marquis of El Carpio, the creation of the Royal Stables of Cordoba, where he brought together the best stallions and mares of the land bordering the Guadalquivir, this being real stud origin of the breed of the Andalusian horse. In the appointment of the Marquis as equerry in 1567 says the king:

[...] Have agreed to support and raise a number of mares with their foals and calves in the city of Cordoba and other parts and parts of Andalucía.
The stables were dependent on the Board of Works, Garden and Forest [7] and the company is dedicated, among others, economic funds from the operation of Andalusian salt. In 1576 the stables had 50 employees and 110 seats and in the 1580, 600 mares were grazing in the pastures of Cordova, [8] 400 in Jerez and 200 in Jaen. In the words of the Marquis:

The goodness of the breed of horses of Cordova, is a thing of greatness that is his Majesty in their kingdoms.
On the death of Marquis I, the charge of "Groom of the Royal Stables of Cordoba" passed to his son, permanenciendo as hereditary office in the entail of the Casa del Carpio since 1625, by royal grant for his grandson. The crown also had the stud Real de Aranjuez, composed of the mares in the Order of Santiago, whose property had reverted to the crown, and another herd in Valladolid. However their quality was not comparable with the stud of Cordova.

In fact in 1605, Cervantes, in Chapter XXIV of Don Quixote assumes that Cordoba is the mother of the best horses in the world. Also in the fifteenth chapter of the novel, refers to the gallantry of the mares of Cordoba with the following words:

Sancho had not healed to take Rocinante loose, confident that he was known by so gentle and so little quarrelsome that all mares in the meadow of Cordoba did not take bad accident.
Throughout the Golden Age there was no doubting the excellence of the Andalusian horses.Lope de Vega in his comedy The commanders of Córdoba includes not only the fame of Cordova horses but also of their riders. [9] Similarly, the cited works of Lope [10] of 1610 and the Fable of Polyphemus and Galatea Gongora, 1612, dedicated to the Count of Niebla, are a unique testimony to the historical name "Andalusian horse."

By this time the Andalusian horses were highly prized in and out of Spain, and have owners like Don Juan de Austria, the kings of France, Duke of Bavaria, Emperor Maximilian II and his brother the Archduke Charles. The latter two created the Lipizzaner horse Andalusian horses from light and the Spanish Riding School in Vienna, following the traditional Spanish dressage.

At this time came the cavalry armories, corporations whose primary purpose was noble exercise of the mountain to the flange and the genet, which in some cases built and maintained their own arenas. The armories emerged in Andalusia for the creation of the Round in 1573, in Seville in 1670, Grenada in 1689, Carmona in 1728, the Antequera, the same year, the de Jerez in 1739 and attempted to establish other Jaen and Utrera, in 1731 and 1732 respectively, but were denied by the Board of Cavalry. The armories also spread outside the territory of Andalusia, with the founding of Valencia in 1697, the Palma de Mallorca in 1758 and Zaragoza in 1819. [11]

In 1751 there was a serious fire in the stables of Cordoba, so Fernando VI ordered rebuild and be complete the work under Charles III, who placed his arms on the facade. That same year Joseph I of Portugal wanted to create a national stud in his kingdom, which purchased 33 mares and 2 stallions from Andalusia. In 1753 the cabin was already 268 individuals, mainly chestnut coat, called the origin of the breed Alter Real.

The political vicissitudes of the nineteenth century in Spain, caused widespread damage to the national equine. On the occasion of the French invasion in 1808 the mares of the stables of Cordoba were moved to the Balearic Islands to preserve the Napoleonic spoliation. [12] After the War, in 1814 did not return to Cordoba but passed on the farm, Aranjuez, leaving the stables of Cordoba as a store of stallions. Besides this Cordoba lost importance because King Ferdinand VII supported the Stud of the hills of Ubeda in 1820 and suspended the ban to cover mares with stallion south of the "real line", which favored the use of the mule hitch cars and coaches, in the south of the Iberian peninsula previously only used in farm work. Besides his brother, Carlos Infante, president of the Supreme Board of Cavalry and supporter of Andalusian cross mares with other European breeds, such as the Norman horse, the trakelner, the Holstein and Hanoverian, created the studs of Cazorla and Seville in 1828 and 1830 respectively, which caused a serious genetic damage to the cabin.

In return for mid-century created the Veterinary School of Zaragoza, Leon and Cordoba, the latter in 1847, under the University of Seville and especially dedicated to the care and improvement of the horse. Also in 1864, initiated by the lojeño Narvaez, the Field of War was responsible for raising and promoting domestic horses. In addition, many farmers had not practiced these Andalusian crosses, so it was possible to recover the original purity of the breed, QUAD in 1893 the War Office decided to organized horse breeding in Spain, placing the national stud, then military, at the Hacienda Moratalla, in Hornachuelos and Inns. For recovery of the Andalusian horse mares were used 18 from Cordoba, Montilla and Jerez de la Frontera. In the latter nineteenth century functioned trecio deposits stallions of Cordoba, Ubeda, Jerez and Valladolid and in the early twentieth century were founded others in Alcala de Henares, Hospitalet de Llobregat, Garrapinillos, Bétera, Leon and Santander.

Horse Breeding in 1912, which depended on the army in Spain opened the first book to enter the Arabian horses, purebred English and Anglo-Arab, deciding to enroll traditionally called the Andalusian horses and Pure Spanish, later abbreviated as PRE . [13] In the 1920 national Moratalla the stud was expanded in Medina Sidonia and then Jerez. During the Second Republic competition in the horse breeding and the development moved to the Ministry of Development and later the Ministry of Agriculture.

During the Franco the national stud farm was renamed military stud. In 1956 he was removed from the Hacienda de Moratalla and moved to Ecija, the farms in the Turquilla and Isle; to Jerez, the Andalusian farm Vicos and Garrapilos; to Ibio, and Lore-Toki (in San Sebastian .) It also opened new stores in Manacor stallions and Hoya Fria (in Tenerife). During this period, which established definitively locomotion in farm work and in traction vehicles, Andalusian horse race was preserved thanks to some farmers, mainly from Andalusia and Extremadura, like Terry, Bahones, Guerrero, Pallares, Romero Benitez, Ladder, Miura and Blasco Balbuena, among others. Asimimo was very important role to the Spanish Equestrian Federation, the locomotion laboratory at the Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, University of Cordoba and Alvaro Domecq, and the promotion of the race that made the Fair won in Jerez, which became called the Horse Fair.

Since 1966 Portugal Spain prevented his book to include on their horses, so that the country Luso chose to give their horses Andalusians a new name: Lusitano, in memory of ancient Lusitania. Portugal opened his own record, which remained open until 1980 and reopened between 1996 and 1999, to cool the blood back to Andalusian horses.

In 1972 he was based in Seville the National Association of Breeders of Spanish Horses (ANCCE). [14] In 1973 the city of Jerez created Golden Horse Award, which granted Alvaro Domecq and ceremony which opened the show "How Andalusian Horses Dance", devised by himself Domecq, with the assistance of the Prince of Spain. This show was the origin of the Foundation Royal Andalusian School of Equestrian Art.

Between 1989 and 1992 in Spain was an outbreak of African horse sickness that hit the cabin of Andalusian horses. In 1990 the Ministry of Finance moved the stud of the Bite, Terry, to the meadow of the Source of serum, both RUMASA expropriated property, where it remains. [15] Since 1991, the ANCCE organized in Seville last week of November the Hall International Horse (SICAB), with significant morphological contest.

In 1995 the stables of Cordoba lost its use as a store of stallions remained empty ever since. In 1996 he opened the Jerez Horse Museum and some after the Carriage Museum of Seville. That same year, the Equestrian Córdoba, which organizes the competition CABALCOR and in 2002 hosted the World Equestrian Games in Jerez.

In recent times several Andalusian horses have participated in the Olympics in the form of dressage, obtaining diploma Olympic individual bronze and team silver in Atlanta 1996, Sydney 2000 and Athens 2004. It is also frequent presence in raids.

Comment by SUSIE-SOLOMON-MABE on February 12, 2012 at 9:18pm

I doubt the owners of themares who are bred to TOTO will care what they are reg. as as they want big moving horses under them and hope to get what he is.  it remains to be seen. hopefully the same training will not be done as  he is sore all thetime and in  special shoes to keep him sound. A shame for a horse who never has seen hard ground in his life. To have heart bars and full bars on is very strange indeed. Sad. And this is not even taking into consideration where his training will head to in the near future.:((


Comment by Mary-Joe Figueira on February 12, 2012 at 8:47pm

No I would not consider your horses crosses. I am also registered in the ILHA, only because I live in Canada and my horse is gelded. Had I lived in Portugal my horse would first of all not be gelded and he would be registered in the Lusitano stud book. However, I do agree that both P and S horses' lineage are intertwined. Crosses are only cross breeds.  Totilas has been bred to 26 Lusitano mares in Portugal. However the foals can never be registered as Lusitanos. They will either be registered as Lusitano Crosses or Porgtuguese sport horses.

Comment by SUSIE-SOLOMON-MABE on February 12, 2012 at 8:12pm

I do not consider my mares croses however they have both P and S in their lineage- as in some spanish and some say Pre and others are L and they must be in a different registry as it is called IALHA.

Do you consider my MARES CROSSES THEN- ?

Comment by Mary-Joe Figueira on February 12, 2012 at 6:07pm

Lusitanos are not crosses if they are from two distinct, Lusitano lines. My lusitano is a cross from the Veiga lines and the Andrade lines. But he is a pure bred Lusitano nonetheless and not considered a cross. By cross I meant a Luso - Arabe, or a Luso TB. That is what I meant by a cross. They can be registered with the ILHA as a Lusitano cross.

Comment by SUSIE-SOLOMON-MABE on February 12, 2012 at 2:31pm

so Susana, since you are Spanish,  and have a vested interest in these horses, I thank you for your being able to educate us here in the USA and elsewhere.

Like many here who have horses with both theparentagew of the P and the S-  I want to ask you - do you consider them some cross or are they a true iberian bred  horse of Spain/Portugagal ? They are most wonderful animals- and have the history of both countries flowing thru their veins. Doubting one side  only takes away the  breeding of the other. I own twolovely  horses who are reg. IALHA and carry the blood of Viega lines and  others- both come from known dressage sires and from wonderous mares with the ability to  work cattle and be  western working horses and show with their riders. I doubt anyone can call them a cross..... as someone who owns Friesians, I have seen the awful things registries do to the people who love the breed. It is all about Politics and nothing else and usually at the hands of men.


Comment by Susana Rodriguez on February 12, 2012 at 1:19pm

Hi Mary-Joe,

I am spanish, form andalucía. Have dedicated my life to the Spanish horse, formely named Andalusian. I believe you have the story mixed up. I will take my time to respond in a later date and perhaps to clear out some of the concepts you have heard or interpreted in a wrong way. regards


Comment by Mary-Joe Figueira on February 12, 2012 at 9:57am

Hi Susana

I believe the story about the split between Portugal and Spain had something to do with the fact that Spain wanted to breed the "arab" line into the Iberian Breed which was the name they used at that time. Portugal vetoed that as they wanted a pure breed. That is why both countries split the stud book. In Portugal they became known as the Lusitano and in the Spain it was the Pure Raza Espanola.  Andalusians are not a "pure breed". I am not sure what they are crossed with. They could be a cross between a Lusitano and a PRE which I believe they could be registered as an Iberian Warmblood (have to check that ). The Portuguese Stud book does not "allow" any breeding into the Lusitano whatsoever. If there is then is becomes a Lusitano Cross or Portuguese Sport Horse. As far as the Andalusians not being a Pure Spanish horse that was told to me by a U.S. Dressage Judge who knows the breed well.


Comment by Misti Seppi on February 8, 2012 at 3:25pm

Riding Holidays in Portugal on Lusitano Stallions!

Hello All:

My name is Misti Sepp and I arrange riding holidays to the Valenca riding center in Vila France de Xira ( Portugal.

The week is hosted and taught by Sofia Valenca - the middle daughter of Sr. Luis Valenca (widely regarded as the top living master of Classical Dressage in the world).  Sofia is highly regarded as a international rider, trainer and instructor in her own right.  She speaks English fluently.

The Valenca training philosophy is based on first gaining your horses trust and friendship and from there, training him progressively so each step is "easy" and possible.  And in this way, developing a horse to the highest levels while preserving his body and his mind. 

FYI - Team Valenca (Exhibition riders)  will be touring the US with Apassionata starting in April 2012.  Check the Apassionata North America for more details and schedule (  This is a "not to be missed" show.

The riding holiday week begins upon your arrival in Lisbon on Sunday.  Sofia (or a member of her staff) will pick you up in Lisbon and drive you to the bed and breakfast. ( All of the bedrooms are private, with an en suite bathroom and a small fridge.

You will have the rest of the day to unpack, rest, and enjoy the grounds at the Quinta.  Dinner will be served Sunday around 7P. 

The bed and breakfast will provide breakfast and dinner daily.  Beverages are not included with dinner, but a quick trip to the supermarket will provide you with a good bottle of wine for 5E or less.  You can buy beverages at the Quinta but the prices are not as good.   

On Monday morning, Sofia will arrive at the BnB and take you to the riding center where you will be matched to a horse suitable to your ability and temperment.  The horses are all school master Lusitanos (many are stallions) - one more beautiful than the last.

The lessons are small group lessons of about 60 minutes duration.  Riders are assigned to groups according to ability (this way we can accomodate a beginner and an advanced rider in the same group).

There is a lesson in the morning and afternoon of each day with the exception of Wednesday. 

Wednesday morning you will go to the Portuguese School of Equestrian Arte for a "backstage tour" with one of the riders, followed by an exhibition by the school.  Presentations include riding, pillar work and airs above ground.


Nine lessons are offered as part of the week.  If you would like additional private riding lessons, side-saddle, in-hand, lunge or long line lessons these can be added for a supplemental cost - just let us know.

During the week Sofia will also demonstrate the training of a Lusitano horse from a green horse on the lunge, through the work in pillars and airs above ground. 

A traditional lunch daily at a local restruarant is included. (the food is delicious and plentiful - nobody goes hungry!)

In addition to the riding lessons there are several field trips

1) the previously mentioned trip to the Portuguese School of Equestrian Arte

2) at least one trip to  the local tack store - we will do this  trip early in the week in case somebody would like to order a pair of custom Portuguese half chaps, or riding boots.  This trip is always very popular with our guests.  Baroque bridles, Portuguese saddles, Spanish saddles and traditional riding costumes are available. 

3) an evening in Lisbon for dinner and fado at Sr. Vinho (  Fado is the traditional music of Portugal.

4) a trip to one of the largest breeders of Lusitano horses in Portugal to see the stallions as well as the mares and foals in the field.

5) a trip to see a fighting bulls in the field. 

The trip ends on Saturday morning with your return to the Lisbon airport.

 Group size is limited to 6 riders per week.  

We are now scheduling 1 week per month April - October 2012 

If you would like more information, please contact me at  

Comment by Susana Rodriguez on February 8, 2012 at 1:57am

Mary-Joe, it is a long story really, Yes, these horses are PRE, and the old way to call these horses, was "andalusians" until some politics and marketing from breeders in other places away from the south of Spain, forced the ministry to change the name and  close the registry to Lusitanos 


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