Comment

Comment by Jackie Cochran on August 21, 2009 at 11:07am

Oh, I forgot, there is one condition which you have to ride a lame horse to speed up healing, the dreaded occult spavin, which Mia has. This has also improved under my riding, as in when I started riding Mia her head bobbed every step of the trot to now when she rarely does it unless her hoof walls are trimmed too short and her feet hurt her. In spite of the heat I started again trimming Mia's front hooves today and will continue trimming her at least once a week, adding the back hooves as I get stronger and the weather hopefully cools down.

Comment by Jackie Cochran on August 21, 2009 at 10:57am

You are entirely right about a lot of things Geoffry, and if these were my horses and if I had the energy I would be doing exactly this (chambon lungeing) as I did when I was less disabled. I also think that there are more than one type of lameness and on than one type of weak back.
Even lunged with the chambon, an unbacked horse will have a back that STILL needs to strenghthen up further to effectively carry a rider. While we may strengthen the bridge of back muscles using the chambon, there are additional adjustments when WEIGHT is put on the back, unless you also lunge with weights, gradually increasing them to riders weight.
But as I said these are NOT MY HORSES, I am riding at the requests of their owners who are trying to rehabilitate these dumped horses' problems. I am probably going to tell Shannon that I do not think that Mars is going to be safe for beginners, and that if she has the time and energy to lunge him I am perfectly willing to lend her my chambon until she no longer needs it. Please also realize that Shannon is building up a handicapped riding program, and that these horses were "donated" with MANY problems, physical and mental, such problems as they are not necessarily proper horses for her purposes. She has decided that it would be much better to BUY horses for her programs with proper vet checks and all.
Mia was simply dumped--the owner disappearing and completely stopping paying for their horse. Debbie has fed this mare, wormed her, had her hooves done and innoculated her all at her own expense since the mare was dumped. Debbie runs a big stable 38-42 horses, and when the girl who was leasing her got her own horse Mia stopped being exercised at all. So Debbie asked me to help her, with gentle riding in my lesson. When Debbie asked me to exercise her more, I asked my son to help me, and for one hour a week I spent 1/2 hour grooming and trimming her hooves, and had my son lead her at a walk for 1/2 hour, first without a saddle, then with increasingly heavy saddles, working on 3 speeds of the walk. Yes, I admit that this did not work as quickly as lunging her in a chambon, but she was so weak that I would not have been able to keep her trotting long enough for the chambon to do its magic. Then I started riding her gently on this non-lesson day, mostly at a walk, some slow trot, always encouraging her to stretch out her neck, keeping my weight forward on the strongest part of her back. As I've said, her back has muscled up ALOT (I had to take out shims in my pad, a Corrector, three times as her muscles grew.)
I consider Barnmice a forum where beginners can hope to learn from more experienced horsemen. Feel free to call me on anything I do, it does not bother me as I consider it an opportunity for horsepeople with less experience than us to learn what is acceptable under good horsemanship. It also does not bother me because I am using my experience to work these horses as sanely as possible but within their limitations. This is more like physical therapy leading to the ability to get more physically fit, rather than strength training.
Also, when I say the horse is sore, other people cannot feel it usually when riding, and it often does not show up at the trot, I just feel that something is less than ideal. I immediately tell the ladies I'm riding for. For the past three years these ladies seem to use me to find out exactly what is wrong with their horses, and to give their horses gentle physical therapy. Except for those few steps at a walk on Mars so Shannon could check the forward and back movement of the front legs under saddle at a walk (he trotted sound while free) I have never had to use "bracing my back" to get movement from the horses I ride. I don't ride dressage, I ride forward seat, this was a total exception to the rule.
I will pass on the Cider message. I already pay for Mia's supplements (hemp powder & MSM), but I need the cooperation of other people to get the supplements fed every day as I am not there but for a few hours a week.
And thank you for your comments. I know they express your deep concern for both the horses and their riders, and I do appreciate it.

Comment by Geoffrey Pannell on August 20, 2009 at 5:10am

Thanks Marti, it's very nice to know I have you support. cheers

Comment by Marti Langley on August 20, 2009 at 3:16am

Hi, Geoffrey, I always enjoy your comments and insights. Cheerio!

Comment by Geoffrey Pannell on August 20, 2009 at 2:21am

Hi Jackie, That you for your honesty and candor in answering my questions. I wouldn't like you to think that I was in any way demanding an answer, and I apologize if it sounded that way. I take it that the horses have been diagnosed by a vet as having arthritis? I say this because there are many things horses can have wrong with there legs and not be arthritic, as I have found from my experiences. We have a lot of older horses here that are in various amounts of work depending on their needs. I have found over the years that Cider Vinegar is an invaluable tool in managing the health and well being of our horses. Some of which are 25-26years old, one that lived and worked til the ripe old age of 45!! However when one of these horses showed any sign of lameness, ridden work is suspended immediately. I'm also a believer of a therapeutic dose of bute so the horse will continue to move around by itself in the paddock . It has proved to be a very successful management practice in keeping these horses not only working but willing to work. If we do remedial work with them they always have a dose of bute so they don't get tense from trying to favour the sore limb or back. If you really want to see improvement in horses with sore backs you must stay off them , even just walking is going to make the horse tense and therefore making any work less than useful. Initially the strengthening work must be done on the lunge in a Chambon, 20 mins each way walking and trotting only each day will have a much faster outcome than any amount of riding. As the horse will go calmer without the stress of having to carry a rider , and they will be more willing to round the back therefore working the muscles that with a rider they would be tensing to avoid discomfort. As horsemen and women we must be very careful not to give our horses human traits, the horse lives in the moment and they don't understand that the pain or discomfort will go away. So to work a horse in this state is not helping its rehabilitation at all, some horses will learn to dump the rider to stop the discomfort, then they are labeled rouge, hardly fair!! We have all been to the gym and had the fitness instructor from hell, you know the ones that tell you, no pain , no gain! And we push through the pain barrier because we know it will be over soon and we can go and have a latte and doughnut!! Well , the horse does have the brain function to understand that, all they know ,through all the other work we have done with them all their lives ,is that if we apply pressure and they go or stop or turn the pressure is released and we don't use discomfort as a training tool , so to ride a horse in discomfort is to invite , at worst , a dumping, at best , an unwilling , un trusting partner . All I ask of anyone who reads this , not just yourself Jackie, is that , the next time you think a horse is obstinate because it wont go when you know it has sore feet or something causing it discomfort, you stop and think about if you had a pebble in your shoe and someone was , in the nicest possible way , making you walk down the road telling you that this is good for you!! . I hope everyone takes this in the vein it was written, not demanding , not condescending , just one persons attempt at finding a better way. Cheers Geoffrey

Comment by Jackie Cochran on August 19, 2009 at 4:14pm

Oh, I forgot to explain the sore feet. Mia had been trimmed OVER A WEEK before that ride and she had had too much hoof wall taken off. Debbie thought she would be alright, but she was still sore so I rode her over the softest ground. This week she did fine, and started striding out better than ever before.
When it gets cooler I will start trimming her myself whenever I ride like I did before it got too hot for me doing farrier work (because of my MS). When I trim her weekly the farrier is presented with a relatively non-chipped hoof that is in balance and he just needs to trim the frog (I'm not strong enough) and make sure the hoof is correctly balanced and shorten the toe some. She does not get sore from being trimmed by the farrier when I do her hooves every week, which is why I do it even if it gets me even tireder.

Comment by Jackie Cochran on August 19, 2009 at 10:27am

His knees started feeling a little sore a little before I ended the ride. I am only walking him. This is at the request of his owner, who is trying to evaluate how the horse's trim is effecting the arthritis in his knee. This horse has improved from being totally lame, to being somewhat lame, to trotting sound most of the time. I am gently trying to get him back into riding shape.
I am also riding the weak backed mare at the request of her owner, who is a respected professional down here. She asked me because the mare has arthritis and was barely moving around in the pasture and I am the only one of her people who will work the mare gently, for months and years if necessary. This is physical therapy for the mare, long, slow and gradual, as I've been riding her for a year. Her back has been muscling up because I do everything I can do to LISTEN and only do what she feels strong enough to do. This mare was weak all over, not just the back, and as you know it all hangs together, and I've been strengthening the hind end enough so the back starts working effectively. The majority of the time I ride her at a walk, with a little trotting, and usually for 30 minutes or less with plenty of rest breaks. Since she is an opinionated Arab mare who never hesitates to tell us she hurts, I think we would have trouble saddling and mounting her if she (the mare) thought I was riding her abusively. She has also been muscling up properly and has become much more beautiful that she was a year ago when I started riding her.
These are older horses with all the physical problems that come from improper riding and care that I have just run into at these stables. We are trying to rehabilitate them so they can become useful citizens. We are supplementing them, and trying to gently bring them back to riding to see if they can become useful. If we do not succeed, they will go back to being somewhat lame pasture ornaments. At least I hope so, because nowadays pasture ornaments are often unaffordable luxuries.
Both of these horses were sort of dumped at these stables.
And you are acting properly to call me on this and demand an answer.
Believe me, if I was not asked I would not ride these horses as I prefer total soundness and joyous movement.

Comment by Geoffrey Pannell on August 18, 2009 at 7:17pm

So why did you continue to ride a horse that you say was sore in the feet?? And the other horse you say has a weak back, and yet you ask him to carry you?