Women Riding the Forward Seat

My wonderful son asked me last week what I wanted for Christmas, muttering that it was probably too late to order on-line to get something by Christmas. I went to the wonderful book site (amazon) and found that I could get any amount of horsie books by Christmas, and I asked for "Riding and Schooling Horses" by Harry D. Chamberlin, the Captain of the US Cavalry teams for international competition so long ago. This book, an old American classic, was written in 1934. Needless to say I had a wonderful Christmas reading my wonderful new horsie book!

It is so interesting reading a book by an accomplished American rider (Gold team eventing, Silver individual jumping, 1932 Olympics) written so long ago. Harry Chamberlin had a very good equestrian education, not only did he get trained at West Point and Fort Riley here in the USA, he also spent one year at Saumar in France and another year at the Italian cavalry school at Tor di Quinto where he learned the still new Italian Forward Seat. I have been reading his excellent "Training Hunters Jumpers and Hacks" over the past 40 years, and because I read and used this book I avoided many, many, many common mistakes. Reading and practicing Littauer's Forward Seat I got a wonderful foundation, but when I got more ambitious it was by reading and practicing what is in Chamberlin's training book that prevented me from ruining my horses. I especially appreciated that Chamberlin preached taking TIME to properly train a horse.

So here I am, happily reading what Chamberlin wrote about the Forward Seat, when I ran into some passages that floored me. Now understand that Chamberlin was a cavalry man long before women were allowed to serve in uniform, and that there were no women riders in any cavalry. Cavalry men, especially in Europe, were all of the opinion that as far as riding horses women were equivalent of cripples who needed the security of the side saddle to have any hope of keeping up with a male rider, any male rider, no matter how bad a rider the male may or may not be. Santini himself, Caprilli's student, writting at the same time as this book, had a chapter on the Forward Seat for side-saddle riders in his books. Back then, in equitation, sexism ruled. Women were considered too weak, delicate and cowardly to be able to REALLY ride a horse.

But I found out that Chamberlin thought otherwise, at least where the Forward Seat is concerned. On page 11-12 he says "Also, let it be said here that women take the correct forward seat with even more facility than do men....The female conformation in general is particularly well-adapted to the forward seat." On page 17 he explains why "Since women are heavier than men about the hips, it is easier for them to maintain their balance with the forward seat, than for the latter, who, due to their conformation, are normally top-heavy. It may also be added that a woman's center of gravity is also closer to the horse, which increases the stability of her seat." EVERY FS author since the end of WWII noted that the vast majority of their students were female, and ALL these old crusty ex-cavalry men (often European) admitted that their female students could become excellent riders, but all the other authors deemed that a woman's greater delicacy in rein aids and greater sympathy for the horse made them better riders, not that they were more secure in the saddle!

This got me to thinking about the present day lack of popularity for the Forward Seat method of riding. Could it be, that with the advent of the FS for show jumping, that all the men who jumped their horses lost their formerly considerable advantages over women in riding? Did male hunt seat riding students suddenly lose their interest in riding horses when they saw the females learning to ride easier and better than they did? Do males in the proper forward seat jumping position feel more insecure in the saddle than women do? DOES RIDING IN THE FORWARD SEAT POSITION MAKE MALES FEEL INFERIOR TO WOMEN? Is this the reason that male western, saddle-seat, and dressage riders seem to think that men who jump at a full gallop over high fences are sissies? Since men still rule all the "important" aspects of any sport, is this the reason that the Forward Seat died away, that the men could not adapt to the, for them, more insecure feeling FS when they felt so much so secure with their seat bones firmly in the saddle?

The great pity about this is two-fold. The worst part is for the horses, Caprilli developed the FS so that the HORSES would be more comfortable, not the riders. Any greater comfort for the riders was purely accidental. Under the FS the horses were finally able to gallop and jump in great comfort under a secure rider who did not torture them. The horses responded by galloping faster and jumping higer with fewer problems. Caprilli definitely did not develop the FS for women riders, as there were no women riders in the Italian cavalry. He expected cavalry men to be BOLD riders, going forth bravely cross-country at a full gallop on horses who were trained to use their own judgement about how to cross the ground safely, all the while doing everything possible not to hurt the horse in spite of not feeling absolutely secure in the saddle. I guess cavalry troopers were expected to feel insecure all the time, that is what sergeants, officers, whizzing bullets and field artillery are for. Also bad for the horses is this modern fad for putting pounds of pressure on the horses' mouths, a fad that looks almost tailored made to negate the other prime advantage women have over male riders, our light, sensitive and responsive hands. I was shocked, shocked!, when I recently realized that I now have lighter hands than most of the dressage riders today, when I started riding it was the other way around! It is even more shocking for me since I have severe physical problems from my MS, problems that are reflected in my hands making them almost unsuitable for riding on contact. Believe me, no horse likes having a constant 5 pounds or more of pressure on their sensitive tongues, lips and bars. It hurts.

The second great pity is for women hunt seat/dressage riders. A lot of women are followers, and they often try to find the best authorities to learn from. And it is widely known, that in English hunt seat and dressage riding, that the best people (usually men) compete internationally. So, by default, a lot of women think that these people, who win medals and prizes, do the best riding on the planet. Since a lot of women want to ride well, and a lot of women want to ride at least as well as a male, they get sucked into a system of riding that was developed through thousands of years just for male riders, dressage, and lately for jumping competitions the "balanced" hunt seat. This seems to cause physical problems for women. In my forty years of riding I have never heard an experienced female forward seat rider complain about how uncomfortable their saddles were. The only time I ever felt any discomfort was when I was 7 to 9 months pregnant riding in my Stubben Siegfried saddle. The next time I was pregnant I switched to my English made Crosby jumping saddle and had absolutely no pain riding, and I rode until the day before labor started. I feel so SORRY for all you female dressage riders who have to spend two to three times as much to buy a custom made dressage saddle just so you do not hurt when riding. I have no pain riding and I can buy a regular saddle and feel quite comfortable. In fact riding FS I have no pain riding in my old German made dressage saddle either. I would not ride in it pregnant, but since I am now too old for that I doubt that it will ever cause me pain. Is this just due to luck? At first when I read about these problems I thought I was just lucky, but now I think it is all due to the fact that I ride FS.

So now I am seeing a picture in my mind of women FS riders learning to ride comfortably and well in the seat most suited for their physique, and of men learning to ride dressage and "balanced" seat, the seats most suited to the limitations of the male physique. Since I have such bad balance I can sympathize with the male inability to easily bring his center of gravity forward effectively enough to keep it directly over the center of gravity of the horse who gallops and jumps, it is hard for me too, hard but not impossible. It is also not impossible for a male rider to develop an effective Forward Seat, hundreds of men managed to do so during the last century, it is just a lot harder for a man than for a woman. It is also not impossible for a woman rider to develop an effective dressage &/or "balanced" seat, just a lot harder than it is for a male rider. I am also thinking that male European ex-cavalry officers who did not deem the FS good enough for them to compete with, managed to make females less effective riders by making them ride in seats more suitable for males, thus reducing competition in the highest levels of competitive riding. Hey, they were CAVALRY MEN, learning to ride for war, to identify the enemy, cripple the enemy, and win! So what if it hurts the horse? Cavalry horses did not tend to have overly long lives anyway.

Women, if you end up in pain when you ride consider riding the Forward Seat, the seat that takes advantage of all your physical differences from men and turns them into strengths. Men, I am so sorry that the Forward Seat is harder for you to perfect, but please think about the comfort of your horses and free them enough so that they can move freely under you. The reward is great. With the Forward Seat I, crippled as I am, can still ride a horse who flies without wings, pain free. You can too. There is nothing like it.

My deepest apologies if any rider feels insulted by this posting. I know you are all trying to do the best as you can within the systems that you were taught to ride, both for yourselves and for your horses.

Have a great ride!

Jackie Cochran

Comment

You need to be a member of Barnmice Equestrian Social Community to add comments!

Join Barnmice Equestrian Social Community

Comment by Mary Ginn on December 31, 2010 at 3:23pm: Thanks for the explanation. And, if 2-point is the same thing, it is alive and well in NATRC. Many, if not most, 2-point at trot and canter, over logs, uphill and down. I sit at flat walk, but try to "sit light" for those unexpected moments and it has served me well. I have also come to the conclusion that the saddle I'm using makes a huge difference!

Happy trails!

Comment by Jackie Cochran on December 31, 2010 at 1:41pm: Two-point is the new name for the Forward Seat gallop/jumping position. When I got back into riding I did not understand what 2-point position referred to, but of course I was thoroughly familiar with the position and able to get into it even when I was much weaker than today.

Just about every jumping rider does FS from the take-off and over the top of the jump. In my pictures on my page I am trying to do a FS but I had not gotten back my position when these pictures were taken, I am still behind the horse's motion and it shows! I am sort of ashamed of those pictures, and I am still working on becoming a better rider. Basically heels down and just behind the girth, knees down, and the seat bones out of the saddle, whether the crotch is touching the saddle (with little or no weight on seatbones) or if the whole seat is out of the saddle. FS riders do not use seat aids, we change our posture instead.

FS riders use the FS on the flat as well as jumping. We try our best to keep our center of gravity over the horse's center of gravity. In the FS I feel like I am moving WITH the horse and I feel the push of the hind legs in my thighs. In a more central seat I feel like I am behind the motion of the horse and I feel the push of the hind legs more in my seat. In a correct FS if the horse accelerates suddenly and/or unexpectedly I am right there, moving with the motion, with the horse's acceleration pushing me forward . If I am in a central seat I feel like I am left behind, my upper body falls back and often my hands go up, I have to be really careful not to hit the horse's mouth with the bit.

Wikipedia has an article of Federico Caprilli, and the article has pictures of the originator of the FS riding in the FS (if I remember correctly.) Wiki's Hunt seat article has pictures of how the FS is used today, mostly over jumps. In fact the vast majority of FS today is done ONLY over the jump.

Comment by Mary Ginn on December 30, 2010 at 10:58pm: Do you have any pictures, Jackie, that would illustrate forward seat? How is it different than 2-point?

Comment by Jackie Cochran on December 27, 2010 at 9:39am: The Forward Seat was developed by Caprilli for cavalry troops. Since war was changing drastically at the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century, cavalry became much more valuable for scouting over unfamiliar country than in battle. The machine gun made battle cavalry charges ineffective.

The Forward seat has mostly been used for jumping and galloping and jumping cross-country, fox hunting and hacking. It is in no way suitable for collected work ala dressage competitions as we FS riders do not use full collection when riding forward. Our advanced physically fit and well trained FS horses are (ideally) trained over open fields, and as the horse carries its rider up and down hills the horse develops an ability to rapidly change its center of balance to deal with the uneven ground. This is also developed in the three speeds of any gait exercises. Occasionally an advanced horse under a good rider may get to ramener, but we never try to get to rassambler (full collection with full flexion of the poll) unless the HORSE decides it needs to do so momentarily to keep its balance in a difficult situation.

While jumping, if a person is in a proper FS jumping position, the thrust of the horse's hind legs at take off lifts the rider's weight at the same time the horse elevates its forehand for the jump. If the rider is in a dressage seat the thrust of the takeoff is not in line with the rider's weight and the horse ends up essentially pulling the rider's weight over the jump. Since the take off is so rapid the centrally seated riders are usually left behind the motion of the horse. Good riders who are left behind make sure that the reins are lengthened. Not so good riders not only hit the horse's mouth, but slam down on the horse's back just as the horse is trying to elevate the hind quarters over the jump. Horses do not like being hit in the mouth or slammed on the back when they are jumping, and it totally ruins the athletic efforts of the horse to jump efficiently. While there may be extremely talented riders who can jump from a central seat at take-off without punishing the horse for its efforts, most of us mere mortals just cannot do it reliably. It is much easier for the horse to jump efficiently (ie. no higher than what is required to get over the jump) when the rider's weight stays in one place and does not shift back and forth from central balance to an exaggerated forward balance that is TOO forward and places too much weight on the forehand.

FS riders aim to stay above the center of balance of the horse at all times. FS instruction is just as much about not overloading the forequarters as it is about staying off the horse's back during the jump. We stay right above the stillest part of the horse's back, like staying on the center of a see-saw instead at the ends of the see-saw.

Hacking in the FS tends to lead to calmness. The rider is not unnecessarily irritating the horse by the rider's badly placed weight, or by blocking the forward movement with the hands and the seat, and the rider allows the horse to do ITS JOB of covering ground in the safest, most effective and most efficient manner. A FS horse, all other things being equal, will get less tired that a dressage riden horse out on the trail. It will also be less irritated with its rider. An elementary level FS rider can safely trail ride on the FS trained horses riding FS and using the FS method of control. An elementary dressage student could not safely ride a fully trained dressage horse on the trail while trying to keep the horse in collection. A quiet horse ridden this way (dressage seat, full collection) on the trail tends to get sullen and resentful, a hot horse tends to get fretful, leading to incessant jogging, head up in the air with mouth agape, all the way up to run-away. Of course an excellent dressage rider would have no problems, I am talking about us less than perfect riders (I am included here.) Most FS trained horses I've seen or ridden on the trail are calm, alert, interested in what is around them, doing free gaits full of forward impulse, even it their riders are beginners (so long as the beginner does not hang on to the reins!)

Using Forward Seat I can get decent movement out of horses who are physically unsuited for dressage for reasons of conformation, physical fitness, or bad initial training as well as from horses who have none of these faults. I can do this even though I am quite disabled by my MS, with faulty balance, great weakness, no proprioceptive sense, and hand tremors. I LOVE FS!!!!!

My apologies for my long answers. Thanks for your comments, all of you!

Comment by Ashley on December 27, 2010 at 1:28am: I find this blog to be a very interesting one. I've been trying to wrap my mind around the forward seat for a little while now, and I've got some questions for you. Mainly my question is what is the intended use of the forward seat? Is it 'only' for the jumping horse who needs to be able to get its hind legs under it to take off, or is it a seat all disciplines can benefit from? I would think though that if you are freeing up the hindquarters by put the weight on the forehand, then this defeats the purpose of a deep centered seat that drives the hindquarters up from behind. It does the same thing essentially: putting the weight on the hindquarters (in dressage, collection.. in jumping, the takeoff), does it not? I think I may be confused here. Can you explain to me what the forward seat is really best used for, and how exactly it affects the center of balance in the horse? :) Thanks for sharing!

Comment by Jackie Cochran on December 26, 2010 at 9:23pm: The racing seat is not the Forward seat, though it may have influenced Caprilli. In the racing seat most of the rider's weight is in the stirrups, in the Forward Seat the rider's weight is shared also with the thighs, knees, and upper calves. The racing seat was almost accidentally discovered, and it while successful it served only racing TBs on the flat. The FS was developed over a decade of observation and experimentation by Caprilli and the people he taught in the Italian cavalry, and is usable for pleasure riders as well as professionals.

The Forward Seat was developed for riding horses across country at a full cavalry gallop, not a racing gallop, though Caprilli was able to use it successfully racing against steeplechasers in Italy. Both Vladimir Littauer in partnership with Sergei Kournakoff in the early 1930's, and Count Ilias Toptani a few decades later, did photographic (Littauer) and film studies (Toptani) proving that the Forward Jumping seat affected the horse's jump less than the other jumping seats, both old English hunt seat and the pre-FS military jumping seat. I have the Littauer book with the ballistic studies by Kournakoff, with the photographs they took. All I've seen of Toptani's work is his description of what he filmed and his conclusions in his book "Modern Show Jumping."

Littauer makes a definite distinction between the FS fast trot and the dressage extended trot. The movement is subtly different, and yes, the dressage horses CAN extend further than the FS ridden horses. However in the FS system we go for the most energy efficient gaits, and we tend to canter when we want to go faster than the horse's regular trot. The FS fast (extended) trot is considered a powerful gymnastic for the horse by the FS authors, and it is also considered more tiring to the horse than a canter at the same speed, therefore we mostly use it in training as a tool for developing longitudinal suppleness (the three speeds of the trot exercise) rather than a movement for its own sake. And, boy, is it fun to ride! (At least before my MS made me a lot weaker.)

So Allan, I do respect you and your experience, but the racing seat is NOT the Forward Seat any more than the dressage seat is. In all three cases the qualities of the horses gallops differ, the racing gallop totally on the forehand and extended with the rider's weight mostly in the short stirrup, the FS gallop somewhat shorter in stride with some of the rider's weight distributed through the legs on the horse's barrel as well as the stirrups, and then the collected canter of the dressage horse with the raised head and lowered croup with most of the rider's weight on the seat bones. Different seats for different purposes.

Comment by Jackie Cochran on December 26, 2010 at 6:42pm: I am from long ago, I am used to such ladies as Kathy Kusner and Mary Chapot competing right up there with the males in show jumping on the USET teams. Kathy Kusner started off in FS at Jane Dillon's school (she who I quoted for my 32 Position Faults to Avoid While Jumping blog) before she ended up on the Olympic team. Now that the "balanced" seat ala de Nemethy (the then USET coach), Mussler and even Margaret Cabell Self is in vogue women are not as well represented in show jumping champs. No, women never dominated, but all of us FS female riders had stars in our eyes back then, gee, if we were good enough, and determined enough, and could get to ride good enough horses we women COULD beat the men in show jumping! There was proof, and one of our own was doing it at the highest levels back then in the USA. Sure, it is an excellent idea to learn any technique that can help your horse, but it is also an excellent idea to know how to ride effectively before you learn all the extra techniques.

Riding students are mainly females over here, it is a great rarity to see a male student learning hunt seat at the stables I've known. I think that only the good, really good male riders keep on riding the jumpers in competition.

I have run into women on Barnmice who started out FS and ended up riding dressage full time. Unfortunately I do not know if the dressage saddles hurt them less.

Dressage riders do not ride forward seat because their horses are in center balance. To me there is a continuum, from the Forward Seat for riding a horse in a more extended, forward balance morphing to a horse that puts its rider into the dressage seat when the horse collects itself in response to the rider's aids. Personally I tend to go with what the horse wants, forward when moving out and more upright for the slower gaits.

It sure sounds like people down were you live are reading Fillis et al about jumping, Fillis, pre FS wrote that riders should stay absolutely erect approaching a jump. In fact a LOT of modern jumping reminds me more and more of the old English hunt seat combined with the pre-Caprilli military jumping seats. The only thing left of the FS that I see in high level competition jumping nowadays are the take-off (forward) and the first part of the flight over the jump (seat bones out of the saddle), everything else is pre-FS. Because of this the horses have to jump higher to clear the jumps than if the rider was just riding FS all the way through the jump.

I hope you and your family had a nice warm Christmas! Presently I am sitting inside because there are 3 inches of snow outside and it is COLD.

Comment by Geoffrey Pannell on December 26, 2010 at 5:11pm: great post Jackie, it's interesting that you say a womans centre of gravity is lower than mens , I always though it was the other way round. Learn something new every day! Interesting theory on the female dominance in equestrian sport, I don't know if I agree. Certainly there is a dominance in Eventing and Dressage, the blokes still rule in Showjumping though! I can only think of one World Champ Showjump rider that was female , Gale Grenough. Don't think that there are very many Dressage riders that ride Forward seat?

There does seem to be a bit of a trend ,in this country, to coach riders to be upright and in the saddle at the face of the jump, as you would if you were riding down the center line. I have a hard time with that, as I have said before I do agree with you that the forward seat is good for jumping, but also I think as riders we need to be flexable and adapt to the horses needs .

Hope you had a great xmas Jackie, Cheers Geoffrey