Comment

Comment by Barbara F. on February 8, 2012 at 6:11pm

Agreed, Marlene and Veann. Your ideas for handling it differently are spot on.

Allan, don't take my comments personally. I simply disagree that someone watching a video can make a 100% diagnosis about any horse, let alone this particular video of this horse.

I would always want a vet to evaluate my horse in person -  to physically examine any horse of mine before judging it to be sound, unsound, or before diagnosing it with something. To be able to feel my horse's legs, back and entire body, to see him move in different scenarios, on different footing, and considering any number of variables that go into making a diagnosis. I would never ever go by someone's video evaluation/judgment/diagnosis (or whatever you want to call it) of my horse.

If you feel you can make those calls via video and be 100% certain you are right, there's nothing to discuss. We just don't agree.

Now back to Totilas, I totally agree with the idea of presenting this as a working session. Wouldn't that have been a fascinating event? Even better, if Rath had been mic'd and were giving a commentary.

Also, insightful comment, Veann, about this being on the Internet. I'm certain Rath could have had the video pulled.  Maybe he still will, but it's to his credit that he's let it run.

Comment by Jackie Cochran on February 8, 2012 at 6:10pm

We all may be right.

http://www.barnmice.com/group/barnmicenews/forum/topics/totilas-out...

Totillas had twisted a joint in a leg (did not say which leg) and was on just hand walking for 10 days around Christmastime.  It was called a minor injury.

It really looks to me that the injury could have used more time off, but when you add the injury to the change in rider, trainer, and being used for collecting semen Totilas is doing remarkably well.

Of course this begs the question of why Totilas was cleared to do this demonstration.  It did no favors for the horse or his reputation, put more strain on the joint, and put his rider and trainer in a bad light.  Dressage movements for physical therapy--good.  Having to do it in a public performance--not so good.

Comment by Marlene Thoms on February 8, 2012 at 4:50pm

Or alternately they could have told the audience Totilas needs a warm up first, so if you don't mind we will do that, and then show you a few other moves, or we will turn this into a mini training session. Do you think anyone would have minded.

Comment by Marlene Thoms on February 8, 2012 at 4:47pm

I agree with Veann, presumably this audience turned up expecting to see something a little more polished. It's not like they said oh come by and catch our (imperfect) warm ups and training sessions, warts and all. See what it's like behind the scenes when we kind of screw up or have a normal off day. At least in Florida, they scratched when he wasn't up to performing. And in a training session you can adjust the exercises to the horse's condition that day and not ask more of him than he can provide, or take an extra twenty minutes to warm up if that's what the problem is.

Comment by Veann on February 8, 2012 at 1:12pm

Honestly, I think this is as much of a marketing mistake as horse/rider error. There should be no excuse for presenting a stallion of such high profile if this performance could have been predicted. Not enough warm up is no excuse. And knowing the microscope this pair is under should have been motivation enough to decide to work through issues behind closed doors.  People would be willing to wait for Totilas. This could have happened to anyone, true. But in this case, more discretion could have been used when allowing the public, the internet, and critics to be privy to (what hopefully is only) a moment of weakness. :)

Comment by E. Allan Buck on February 8, 2012 at 12:22pm

Barbara:

Here is an example of extreme muscle injury to a horse and the rider did not know it nor did an FEI endurance judge recognize it.

Please observe that the horse is basically having me support him while I am working on him.

I saw how the horse was standing commented to the rider, and he moved off with the horse as I watched.  Then I told him where I saw the problems and he asked me to show him.
I palpated the horse and the owner was shocked how much area of the hindquarter muscle structure was in tetanic contraction.

I am not a vet, yet I can see muscular injuries that vets cannot.  I am proud to be able to do so and I teach my clients how to see and feel muscle problems as they arise.

If one is not willing to judge a video then why do so in person?  A video is what the eye sees whether on screen or in person.  And I am not judging, I am rendering an opinion predicated upon years of hands on working experience.

Comment by Barbara F. on February 8, 2012 at 11:32am

Yes, of course muscle injuries are lameness and are to be taken very seriously.

I'm talking specifically about this horse in this video. To be extra clear, I'm simply saying that I am choosing not to judge based on a video. That's all.

If you can watch the video and be 100% certain you are right about diagnosing the horse just from the video, then what can I say?  Your mind is made up. Mine isn't.

Comment by Barbara F. on February 8, 2012 at 11:26am

"At the same time the horse has--changed riders, changed trainers (?), and used for breeding.  It may take a while for everything to shake down and Totilas rediscovers his old movement.  I hope he does, a magnificient horse who looks like a challenge to sit his trot, very powerful. " True, Jackie. And, yes, that trot looks like a chellenge indeed!!

Comment by E. Allan Buck on February 8, 2012 at 11:26am

Barbara

You are demonstrating one major problem in competitions of any kind.

A great number of riders and judges are not willing to admit that horses have extreme muscle problems, because these problems are in reality an 'injury'.

Muscle injuries are 'lameness' because such injuries prevent the horse from moving in its natural gaits.

 

Comment by Jackie Cochran on February 8, 2012 at 11:17am

I was not seeing lameness as such, but I do see uneveness in movement.

On another forum someone said that Totilas was used for breeding, collection not actual breeding.  This could really mess up his back/sacro-iliac joint and hind legs if he moved wrong for mounting the dummy "mare".

I was seeing the resistances (one time he kicked) coming around the piaffe at first, like it hurt to switch his weight back? 

At the same time the horse has--changed riders, changed trainers (?), and used for breeding.  It may take a while for everything to shake down and Totilas rediscovers his old movement.  I hope he does, a magnificient horse who looks like a challenge to sit his trot, very powerful.   

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