Help with my old skittish Mare

I purchased my 14 year old Mare over a year ago, she was suppose to be my riding horse. I bought her to ride since my gelding I purchased over a year before that was dangerous on the ground so there was really no sense in even trying to get on his back.

Anyway the Mare, was advertised as trained had even been in the Calgary light horse display, photos on the website showed a rider on her.

I remember asking over and over of the person I bought her from are you sure I can ride her while she is pregnant, I knew if I did it would only be light trail anyway, as I am not a big risky rider. I just want to trail ride. She reassured me that it was fine, just spend time with her and lunge her.

Well turns out I had surgury and could not ride her so I got to spend over 2 months with her before asking my husband to get on her for me. Saying we got to ride her otherwise she is just going to think that all she has to do is eat grass.

So he got on her back and he didn't even get a chance to put his foot in the 2nd sturip, that was over a year ago. She took off so fast and I was sure she killed him when he went flying and then she fell , got back up and took out a couple of electric fences. I was sure she lost her foal as she was only a couple months pregant at that point.

Since then we have just got close to her slowly, she does not like being caught and is the only one I have kept a halter on. When I catch her I do it by walking close to her but not like I am going towards her. I will stand close and then she comes to me. Walking up to her causes her to take off. And if that happens then I am in the postion of having to make her work. " So you don't want to come to me AY!!! And make her run, till she finally stops and lets me walk up to her.

I am starting to think this is a game with her, and there is no need for it.

Once I have her she is perfect, she backs she sides , all I have to do is look at her hips and she moves for me , so yes. It's obvious she has been trained.

Oh and she hates anything that looks like a whip, her ears go back her nostrils start puffing and she is out of this world scared to death.

But yesterday I took her out, lundged her a bit and walked her and spent some time getting her to do as I wished. She was perfect.

Then I took the lunge stick with long line" and rubbed her legs with it. You could tell she was scared to death. There was no relaxation at all with her as I rubbed her with this.

I then proceeded to put a big tarp on the ground and get her to walk on it. She was reluctant of course, but with a bit of time she did. I let her smell it first but could not rub her with it, so I just put it down.

Will she is always just be scared to death of everyting? Will she always be hard to catch.

The reason I think it's a game with her is because she will come to you if you do not go to her first. She will not come if called. But if I am sitting under a tree reading she will come and stiff my hair and look for scratches.

The thing is she is perfect once I catch her as far as doing as I want her to do other than a terrible fear.

My gelding who I could not even stand beside is my pussy cat now, and I can get up on him and even ride him now with just his halter. He is perfect.

Can't for one second even think of getting on her. I got my husband to hold her as I lifted my leg over last week and I told him to be prepared because I knew I would be jumping off. I had to almost immediately.

If this is going to take more time I can deal with that, but if there is something I am missing I sure could use your advice .

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on August 2, 2010 at 10:26am

We ALL learn by experience. EVERYONE makes mistakes at first.
But, saying that, you are obviously not doing too badly, the mare does come up to you of her own free will, after all. And it sounds like you are succeeding with your gelding.
You mare sounds like she was trained roughly. Specific triggers seem to be whips (don't use one for a while, she probably got whipped pretty regular), and any posture that the previous trainer(s) used as a signal. It can be very challenging to overcome the abuse. A first step is identifying the triggers of those bad memories, and being very, very, sure to substitute another cue for the desired movement and behavior.
You may want to read three of my blogs (listed below.) These blogs do not fit your description of your troubles, but they are about solutions I have found that help me overcome the symptoms of past abuse.
Horses are not often taught how to learn. This means that the horse is never completely sure that it understands your aids. This causes mental distress and anxiety in a previously abused horse.
The three blogs are:

A Rule of Grammar (March 21, 2010)
A Good Reason to Count to Ten (June 27, 2010)
Another Good Reason to Count to Ten (July 11, 2010)

It does not sound like your mare was being trained by these methods. This means you will be a lot less likely to unwittingly trigger anxiety in your horse. There will be a lot more you need to do, but this will give you a place to start.

Permalink Reply by N Roden on August 2, 2010 at 10:46am

I totally agree with you Jackie! You've certainly hit the nail on the head!

Permalink Reply by Veronica Delagard on August 2, 2010 at 5:45pm

Thank you Jackie for your vote of confidence.

As far as my gelding yes, he is wonderful . And I got there by using my head. I didn't know a lot about horses when I bought him and when he turned out to be more than I could handle I hired a trainer. I think she had a level 5 Training cirtificate with the Canadian Equestrian Association and was well recommeded, Actually people came from miles around just to see her work on my horse. She had less than ten min with him and I had 4 months ahead of seeing his sad face and watching the whip marks heal on his face. Any trust he had was gone and took a long time to return. I felt like he blamed me for letting this person loose on him.

So when I say I got here by using my head , well seeing this young woman whip him for bascially nothing in such a short time and look like she was really enjoying herself told me that this can not be how you train any animal. I would not treat my dogs this way!!! Why would I do it to a horse??

I didn't know any better than, but I tell you it didn't take me long to stop her and it will never happen again.

I have learned that time and patience will work. The thing is this Mare is taking a very long time.

Maybe your right , maybe I am doing better than I am giving myself credit for.

The crop thing , well I don't usually use one around her because of her fear, but last weekend I decided it's been a year so it's time. Meaning she has had this year with me to know that she will not be hurt by me, I will not hit her, just guide her. She didn't run me over , she just huffed and puffed and her eyes got big, more than likely her past memories. Then I rubbed her gently she let me she could have run me over. She didn't. Then it was over.

She has been with me for over a year, and she yes, now comes to me on her own, not when I want her to but this too may happen.

Next time she may be better with the crop, I think she is only going to take time. But I guess I was hoping for a miracle cure. I guess really if I do get it, it will come from my love of her and my patience to just want her to be happy.

Me rushing her is sure not going to get her where I want her and that is to feel safe.

Thank you for all your advice.

And your blogs, I will read them. I went to your site and had a bit of a hard time figuring out how to find the ones you mentioned, but figured there is a lot of good reading there so the next time I visit will be eariler in the day when I haven't just had such a long day and am too tired for any reading.

Thank you again

Veronica

Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on August 2, 2010 at 6:57pm

On the left hand side of my page, under the photo, there are several things ending in the facebook link (no, l am not on facebook) and then it says Blogs (61), click on this. All three of the blogs I listed are on the first page that comes up of my blogs, just scroll down.
My sympathies are with you about your run in with the "trainer". The reason I had to learn how to train (I started with a green-broke 5 yr. old) was 1) I didn't have enough money to pay someone to train my horse, and 2) I could not find anyone I trusted to train my horse properly (ie. up to MY standards.) Now, when I do not have horses I have finally found ONE trainer I would trust with a horse of my own. Gee, one trainer after 40 years of sort of looking. I guess I am just too picky for words!
I presume that your mare is a Morgan? And that she had show training? I once saw an Arabian owner FLOG his show horse HARD across the front legs below the knee when the horse did not stretch out enough for him. The reason they flog the horses below the knees is that it does not leave marks there, so the judges and stewards have no proof of whipping, but it really hurts the horse. Personally I would give her at least 3 months before trying the crop on her legs again, but then you are there and you know your mare so you are in a position to make a better decision than I am with just reading about it.
Please realize that a memory of a traumatic and painful event feels to a horse like it is happening all over again, sort of like a flashback, with sensations and sounds and all the fear and the memory of the pain that the horse felt during the original traumatic events. Eventually your gentle and humane handling may completely overcome these memories. This can take YEARS. Meanwhile the less the memory is triggered the sooner it can be overcome with humane handling. This is how I work with ruined horses, doing everything I can to avoid the triggers to the manic behavior. Eventually the horse calms down and things can be re-introduces SLOWLY (like put the crop on the ground or the fence, after a few days just pick it up, then put it down, when the time feels right hit YOURSELF with the crop so she hears the sound but does not get hurt, etc., etc..) You are there, follow what you feel is the best--the least traumatic.
I mention another site on the "count to ten" blogs. I do recommend the e-mails, but with your description of your mare's training I suspect that she was trained to do the things that this site teaches (no, the site does not advocate beating) SO KEEP YOURSELF SAFE WHEN YOU TRY SOMETHING NEW, do not stand right in front of the horse and I recommend you wear a hard hat, even when working on the ground.
Since you are brave enough to stop a recognized trainer (HOW did she get rated?) from abusing your horse, you have shown good sense. If something does not sound or feel right do not do it. Your progress may be slower, but I bet you and your horse will be happier.
I personally have ignored advice from LOTS of people (and books and magazine articles) that thought they knew more than me. Well, they did know more than me, they knew a lot more of how to abuse the horse (often because they followed a system and did not think about how it harmed the horse.)
Take care. You are a brave lady. I know. I've been there.

Permalink Reply by Veronica Delagard on August 2, 2010 at 8:28pm

Hi again Jackie

I am going to first start with her memory of a tramatic event. I think like people they may never go away and it may only take one trigger. So why keep pushing it?? I think I have her trust, I just need to maybe find a new way with new devices. Maybe just my hands rubbing her legs instead of the crop.

It's obvious to me that even though I am doing fine with her, she may never be a horse that would be able to go on a trail ride.

Everything scares her.

And your right she is a Morgan. I could be wrong, but I think the only reason she was trained at all and that did not happen till she was 7 years old , was so she would be sellable after her breeding days were over. A fast 60 day training which more than likely scared her into behaving or else!!! I went back to her old photos and did not see the spikes I was looking for but could not get a close up. But I did notice the rider leaning back on her , with the bitt very thight in her mouth. The thing is I have not used a bit on her. And the rider another very young girl, all cowboyed up.

She has wonderful Western Working Bloodlines . And there is no reason for me to ride her anyway I have my gelding, and her 3 year old daughter whom I have had a saddle on a couple times and she is perfect . No I have not rode her yet, no hurry no rush. But I guess I just want the mom to feel less skittish and happy. It can't be much fun for her being afraid of everything.

And my gelding I was going to try him bareback over the weekend and I know he will let me, but did not have the time.

Reason being, my hands are shot, I find it hard to get my saddle right and that means I have to wait for my husband to saddle up for me, I just want to be able to go alone once in awhile.

His 10 min trainer, how was she evaulated > Perfect!!! Yes, that day I looked like the fool, not her. You must know that in most peoples eyes the old way is the right way.
This young girl of 23 trains Arabians Stallions for a Doctor here in New Brunswick. So who am I to say ??

I myself don't know how anyone at such a young age and a girl at that, would not see . Or at least would question these methods.

My boy at one time would use every chance he could to try and bite me, now and I never thought or even tried for this. It just happened. He licks me, just like a big old St Bernard would. I was so shocked the first time, I froze and he did it again, and then I cried!!!!

Have you ever read the book " The soul of a horse" by Joe Camp? When I first bought it to read I thought I would find a way to understand horses , I did a bit but more so than any of that is I found someone else who was later in age before getting his first horse. " He questioned the norm too"

I am here to enjoy my dogs and horses not harm them. This isn't about impressing anyone but them.

And thank you for the directions to your blogg. I will read!!!

Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on August 2, 2010 at 8:59pm

Until I started to count to ten the Arab mare I'm riding was afraid of EVERYTHING. Now she has learned (in her late 20's) how to process the frightening boogies of the world. Don't give up on helping her settle down, you never know when knowing something like this will become useful in the future.
I feel very, very, very sorry for the Arabian stallions that trainer is working on.
It is sad when beginners have to correct the mistakes of the professionals who are supposed to know sooo much more! I admire you, Veronica, you've got guts AND you have a brain and know how to use it. This is a good combination when you want to become a horseman.
You may want to try GLA (gamma linolenic acid) for your hands (oral). It is available in Evening Primrose Oil, Black Current seed oil, Borage seed oil, and (the cheapest) hemp seed oil (possible false positive on drug tests for the hemp seed), which you can find in health food stores. I had arthritis in my fingers for years, I was eating 6 to 8 aspirin a day. The GLA made it so much better my finger joints have not bothered me for over 15 years now. The GLA encourages the body to produce its own anti-inflammatory compounds (it also works on horses). It is not just for arthritis but for any type of inflammation that just won't go away.
I know that for English saddles there is this little doohicky made that helps weak people tighten the girth. I don't remember what it is called, maybe someone reading this will know about it. I don't know if there is an equivalent gadget for Western saddle girthing, but you may want to check it out at your tack store. The danger is getting the girth too tight, but from what you say I don't think this will be a problem.
Take care and good luck in all your horsie endeavors!

Permalink Reply by Veronica Delagard on August 2, 2010 at 9:50pm

Jackie I am enjoying this conversation very much!!!

Something for my hands and hope for my Mare, she is only 16.

I won't give up on her and you know when she was later stage pregnant and I seperated her we bonded there and when the little guy was born she nudged him to me, so I know she wants to be my friend.

I would like to keep it that way, so I want to make sure I don't ruin what I have with her so this is why I am asking all and so much from you all. And I have enjoyed the asking.

As far as gutts, oh I don't know about that. I think my fear is what has protected me, maybe not fear is the word, its my inner self saying to her or my gelding when I was struggling for answers . Look you guys , show me what to do. I am just as scared as you but if you trust me then maybe I will trust myself more and we can do this.

Because you know, I would never have hired another trainer, but I also would not have parted with the horses I have. I could not imagine sending them off to " Who Knows" I mean isn't that how they got this way in the first place.

I would have accepted the no ride and just have them as pasture ornaments.

I will keep my eye open for that doohickie????

Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on August 3, 2010 at 9:09am

The doohickie is called, surprise, a GIRTH TIGHTENER and there is a universal design that can be used on English, Western, Aussie, etc. girths. Designed for people with weak hands.
There were lots of entries on the web selling them. May it help you!!!

Permalink Reply by N Roden on August 2, 2010 at 10:44am

I didn't see the comment below mine.. but here's my comment anyway! LOL You keep doing what you are doing! She just needs to warm up to ya. She's obviously been frightened to death with the crop /whip and I think if you keep rubbing her with it, perhaps at feeding time...she'll get so she's not afraid. As for her coming when you call.. try getting a bell or use a certain whistle when you go to feed. She will eventually start coming at a trot or run when she hears that bell or whistle. it does take time to train a horse...some learn faster than others.. The reading and letting her come to you is ingenious...eventually she will trust you and just come when she sees you! Keep up the good work you are doing! just don't let anyone get on her unless they are experienced and perhaps use a round pen or smaller enclosure at first when you do get on her! Also when you are working with her on the lunge, are you using a lead line?? I think it is better to use the lead line or a lunging rope than to just let them run free! I've also delved into the clicker training thing. I leanred about clicker training when I trained my dogs.. It is very awesome to see them respond...

I am by no means a trainer, I am just reiterating what I've learned from my pervious and current horse.

Good Luck, and please keep us posted on your progress...

Nola

Permalink Reply by Veronica Delagard on August 2, 2010 at 6:20pm

Hi Nola

As well thank you for your vote of confindence, and anything I am learning I am learning too on my own using common sense. Now as far as my waiting for her to come to me, well as you said you have dogs. So you know " You can't force yourself on them with love or anything if they don't trust you" You run , they run. I have a dog here that took 6 months before she would go to my husband, she would cowar and just shake at the thought of a man around her and don't dare put your hand up to pet her. You get the gist of what I am saying.

Now she loves my husband and she does not cowar anymore. He did not push himself on her. He waited till she was ready and like my mare, it did happen the first time she came to him on her own to stiff his hand, from there it was all uphill. And like my mare sniffing my hair, maybe this is our way up hill.

So my Mare I figure I am not going to chase her and let her have one up on me. Or scare her either. Look you want to come to me come, you want me to chase you, no way . I will not !!! But if I get sucked into it, like I said I make her work.

When I say sucked into it, well because she has had a foal she gets fed more and in a different spot same as before she had the foal. To make sure she gets what she needs. Well it use to be a challenge. Either chasing her in the snow to make sure she went and got fed, or let her eat with the others and stronger more dominat mares and take a chance that she will never get her food or worse get hurt.

Well she finally has the supper run down pat, meaning if I don't go. I am shit out of luck. So if I went out and said ok supper time she would look at me and go in the opposite direction. So now I just put her food down where she is suppose to go get it. Lets just say, she realized that the other horses were going to get it if she didn't go. See once she is at her dish, I close the area off so she can eat in peace. If she dosen't go then I feed her with the other horses and she never gets her whole supper that way. The Dominant mares take it.

So she does now come for supper. But not because she is coming to me. But the other day I went out and oh I did not plan to get caught up in the game, but I wanted her over in the paddock so I could work her, and when I stood beside her she went in the opposite direction, I knew she knew exactly what she was doing. She knew I wanted to work her, and figured she would give me a hard time. Instead I ran her and ran her till she got tired and stopped. If I would have just turned around and walked away saying piss on it. She won!! No training. That was not going to happen.

But I had to let her go as soon as I had her, I would never have lasted " I needed a bathroom run"

A coffee and a smoke and 20 min later, there was no run, just a bit of a back and forth and then let me catch her, see I think she trust me but she has bad memories of her previous training and some how it takes over and she is reluctant to come. One she is there she is good, except of course in the saddle.

But sometimes I really believe she is playing a game. And if I get sucked into it, she wins meaning she is my boss. And if I end up playing her game and that is what I am doing if I chase her for anything, so I won't.

As far as the saddle fit, no it's fine. But you know now that I think about it, I am going to go back and look at those old photos from when I bought her. Remember I said , it's once the leg goes up. Well if she was in the Calgary Stampede and hey she is branded, maybe they also used spikes on their boots???

I will see.

Keep up any advice and I will continue with her one day at a time.

Permalink Reply by Linda White on August 2, 2010 at 12:03pm

Another thing to consider - get someone who knows about saddle fitting to come and check the fit of the saddle on her. A saddle that pinches can cause a horse to dump its rider or to avoid being mounted.

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on August 3, 2010 at 1:31pm

what a fantastic thread..... good advice here..... I can't wait to read it all but for now I'm going to just say hello and that I'm excited to see that you care enough about the horse to try and figure it out.. my skitty older horse is very much like her... the first time I met my trainer he asked me to get off the horse..... then, he taught me a ton of cool stuff.. that took f o r e v e r... now he's coming to me when I call him.. took a bunch of time to bond with him.... my trainer taught me to catch him at liberty by drawing him in..... starting with moving my body to not lose his eye..... when he looks at me, turn and go to the other side of the pen....... walk around to his tail until I have his eye, then release the pressure and walk away.... eventually catching her eye, her nose and her front foot steps forward and if you lose the connection, grab her eye again....always by walking toward her hip.... then, when she engages, bend your body and walk away and see if you can draw her to you..... then get her to follow you where ever you go and whalla you got a horse you can ride... woohoo!! my trainer teaches everything at liberty at first... if you wanna chat more, I'm loving this thread.... now my horse Toby catches me... that's what Chris Cox teaches too.... and grooming her, walking away and see if she'll follow.. good stuff...