Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Barbara F. on December 1, 2008 at 9:02am

Hi Geoffrey,
As a dressage rider, I also go along the scale of training that you are outlining here.

I can't speak for William, but I think what he is referring to by acceptance is the same as what, at our barn, we call "willingness" and what the western riders call "want to". referring really to a horse that is happy in his work, as opposed to one who submits because he has no choice (tail swishing, backward-feeling, would run out of the jump if he could, etc.)

The late Dr. Reiner Klimke put it much better than I ever could. "A willing servant, but no slave."

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Permalink Reply by Geoffrey Pannell on December 1, 2008 at 4:06pm

Hi Barbara, The horse that is tail swishing, tight in the back, is not submissive. He might be going where you point him but not as a willing servant . Submission is surely when your horse goes forward at the smallest aid into a constant rhythm and maintains that rhythm and direction until asked otherwise and more than that, does it with an Acceptance of the aids[ not just the bit ] without tension, the seat of the rider without stiffening,and the reins without resistance. I think there is a general misconception as to what submission is. I don't believe submission is as simple as it is portrayed , if you have a horse that is not comming 'through', the horses movement will be short of his best , any collection wil tend to be a slowing down rather than a shortening and heightening of the steps . Thank's for your input Barbara, this is going to be a good disscusion. Cheers Geoffrey

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Permalink Reply by Barbara F. on December 1, 2008 at 5:00pm

Hi Geoffrey,
We have some very intelligent insights here - I'll try to keep up! :)
I generally don't use the term submissive at all, but the terms "willing" or "willingness" so I was doing my best to interpret William's blog. Hopefully, I didn't entirely butcher his meaning (I'll message him to join us in this discussion).
In my mind, throughness is mental first, then manifested in the physical. On my horse, there is a point during the warm-up when his ears just relax and almost flop to the sides (very slightly, as opposed to say a bunny!). At that moment, I know my horse is "through". He is like a soft rubber ball, going forward, back, laterally, whatever I ask, he is connected from back to front with soft chewing contact, and right there ready to do his best. By the way, I find the word "through" to be even more tricky than "submissive", because everyone thinks they know the only true meaning. For me, throughness starts in the horse's brain and I think that's what William means by accepting rather than submitting, but let's see what he has to say. Perhaps the western riders say it best: Softness, Want to and Try. Great words.

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Permalink Reply by Queenrider on December 1, 2008 at 11:52am

Acceptance of the bit and submission are not quite the same thing.
Acceptance of the bit: Ever tried to put a bit into a horse's mouth and he gives you a hard time? (Mouth clamped shut, head in the air when trying to put the bit in the mouth. Once the bit is in the mouth, crossing the jaw, hard jaw, crossed jaws, trying to spit the bit out)
Submission=equals a willing partner, willing to at least try what you are asking them to do.
How does a horse show submissionphysically? A dog shows submission by not maintaining eye to eye contact and/or rolling on its back with its feet in the air. A horse shows submission by not maintaining eye to eye contact, by dipping/lowering its head and neck (in the beginning it is only for a moment), by chewing the bit but they will also chew if there is no bit in their mouth (in the beginning only for a moment).
A submissive horse may not accept the bit if it has a problem with the bitting process, doesn't like that type of bit, riders uses the bit incorrectly (its not a handhold), bit is adjusted incorrectly, teeth problem, tongue problem, mouth injury.

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Permalink Reply by Geoffrey Pannell on December 1, 2008 at 6:28pm

Hi Barbara, Lets see if I can explain what I think 'Through' is. The horse's hind quarters, back ,neck and mouth are coordinated and connected by an elastic-like circuit so that the aids applied in any one of the areas will be felt in all the others [I think this is Acceptance , the beginning of submission.] . If this firm, elastic connection is blocked at any point by stiffness, tension ,or resistance[ i.e. is not submissive throughout the body], the aids will not go 'through ' and cannot be harmoniously combined. So when you say throughness starts in the mind , I think that's Acceptance, and then we move to Submission. I do like your ear thing, I have had horses that do the same thing, but I believe that is a result of softness coming from Submission, so the ear thing is more the end result of sympathetic riding and not the start . It is a great indicator for relaxation, witch I feel comes from Submission. I hope that helps clear up what I mean by 'through' , witch is pretty much what you said anyway. I do agree that it starts in the brain [Acceptance?] , and than becomes submission. I think everyone will agree , at the end of the day we want our horse's working 'with' us and not 'for' us. I am about to buy a new video camera, so I will take some vision of a new filly I'm breaking in , won't be for a couple of weeks though [dammed expencive things]. Must go Cheers Geoffrey

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Permalink Reply by William Micklem on December 1, 2008 at 6:48pm

It is so good for us all to think about this important subject and have this discussion. But to many people it may seem that this is just an exercise in semantics and we are being boring theorists! However I believe this gets to the heart of training and is of the greatest practical importance. I believe we are led astray by those who suggest that mental acceptance comes from physical acceptance and this attitude can give carte blanche to all sorts of strong arm tactics.

Of course most horses are immediately more comfortable (and accepting) if they work as one connected unit with true impulsion, but the mental and physical elements cannot be separated, they are the yin and yang of performance riding. To neglect the mental acceptance in the early sessions will change the way a horse works with humans, possibly for ever, because this is the way they are hard wired....as prey animals.

There is an answer...do quality work from the beginning. By quality work I mean having the young horse through in the back with genuine acceptance before we get on their backs. I do this on the lunge, but I accept that to lunge really well is not easy. So lets take this a step further to riding in the saddle. With the right method (using the right Variables) it is possible to get the vast majority of horses between the aids, with impulsion, in walk on one rein in a matter of minutes....as long as they are calm, have a basic understanding of the aids and are not in pain.

Then it is simply a matter of walking on the other rein, then doing a little trot, and gradually following the beautiful progression of exercises over the years...but all the time carrying true acceptance with us, not waiting for it to arrive as we do more advanced exercises. This will allow accelerated progress.....however, is it easy to do this? No! This is our challenge. William

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Permalink Reply by Geoffrey Pannell on December 3, 2008 at 6:32am

Hi William, This is good , some very thought provoking comments coming through. I will continue at the risk of sounding like a semantic theorist [ if you don't get the theory right, what hope have you at getting the practical right ]. I will agree that mental acceptance does not come FROM the physical, but hand in hand with the physical. I will also agree that quality work from the beginning is essential, and at no point do I believe in violence towards a horse as a way of training. However I cannot agree with your assertion that you can be successful in training a horse with gaining submission. I will try and outline why. I think what you call acceptance is ultimately submission. It is about understanding what the EQUESTRIAN definition of submission is [ which I feel I outlined in a previous reply ]. If you look on a dressage test sheet, at the bottom there are the collective marks . They are for Paces, another for Impulsion, another for SUBMISSION , and lastly for Rider Position. these marks are for the overall impression throughout the test. Under Submission , by means of explanation it says, attention and confidence; harmony; lightness and ease of the movements; acceptance of the bridle. We all know we must be aware of the different way the horse's mind works from us lesser beings [lol] .We do run the risk of humanizing the horse. What makes them happy isn't always what makes us happy. LET'S LOOK AT THE COMMON LEARNING THEORIES AND THERE REVELANCE TO HORSE TRAINING . Habituation; is often called 'getting used to it ' training. This is where animals learn not to respond to a stimulus. The sences are continuiosly sending signals to the brain abuot the would around . Habituation is the mechanism whereby the brain filters out that information not important to the welfare of the animal. Most of the horse breaking process is habituation [ Could you call habituation , acceptance? ]. Modern breaking methods try to avoid a flight - fight reaction in the horse and utlise physcological principles. An example; a good breaker employs an advance \ retreat phychology when teaching the horse to pick up its hindlegs , rub the horse over the rump and gradually move down its hindlegs. When we feel the hirse tense up, we back off [ retreating with our rubbing back to the rump ] until the horse relaxes again.Then we repeat the procedure moving down the leg a little further each time , until we can pick up the hoof a little bit. Each time we lift the hoof a little higher until we can stand in the farrier's stance. Horse Accepts us picking up it's hoof and is submissive in standing still while we do it . All the other ways horses learn i.e. Operant conditioning; Latent learning; Imprinting; Instrumental learning [ feel free too add any others ] , all end up with the horse accepting and then giving us submission. I still find it hard to seperate the two , one seems to follow the other . Cheers Geoffrey

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Permalink Reply by William Micklem on December 3, 2008 at 3:42pm

Geoffrey....I am genuinely glad we agree on all the areas highlighted in your response. However I stand by what I have already said and I have no doubt that not only will it make more riders more effective, by
looking for acceptance rather than submission, but it will make them safer.

In horse trials training this is of crucial importance. Having lost a friend recently, in what I consider to be not a tragic accident but an accident waiting to happen, I hope you will forgive me for being blunt about this.

I believe submission is the wrong word to use in the collective marks of a dressage test, and that both by general understanding and use and by dictionary definition there is without question a difference between
acceptance and submission. Regrettably I also believe that a huge amount of training is directed towards submission rather than acceptance. In the light of your comments this is obviously not true of yourself but I believe it is an enormous problem in equestrian sport as
a whole.

Let's look at human relationships as an analogy. Generally speaking people can be aggressive, assertive or submissive to others. My simple explanation to distinguish between these three is as follows: An
aggressive person is saying, I'm OK but you're NOT OK. An assertive person is saying I'm OK and you're OK, while a submissive person is saying I'm NOT OK but you're OK. Most would agree that here is a common
understanding of submission used with this meaning.

I don't want a submissive horse, and a submissive horse is less likely to look after the rider across country. A submissive horse is less likely to use it's 'fifth leg' instincts and take responsibility for reacting to what is seen, as opposed to just following the rider's
instructions or doing nothing because of a lack of instructions. I believe we both reject a mechanical or aggressive approach to training.

In the fullest meaning of the word I seek acceptance.
Happy days.
William.

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Permalink Reply by Rachel on December 3, 2008 at 7:51am

What an interesting discussion. Submission is giving in, in a submissive state becoming submissive. The horse finally gives in and becomes submissive. This could be the horse finally giving in and getting the horse on the float after a trying time of refusal to get in and stay on the float. Acceptance is a new learning a new training a willingness to learn without resistance and struggle with retention of new learning. Learning to accept a new and correct form of training. Accepting something that the horse previously did not know of or accept maybe a new training method unknown to the horse, Acceptance is trust in your leadership, trust in you as the rider, without fear or a wobbly. Submission is giving up being the alpha, and giving in to the alpha. They are two very different types of behaviour. Acceptance is the horse learning a new skill and remembering it, without fear, without past bad experiences. submission is a final understanding of what works the horse respecting that you are leader and he will do what you tell him too . Acceptance is a willingness to learn and an intelligence . Submission is the final giving in of will after hard battle maybe a remembered bad learning experience that the horse rider is trying to correct it. Whereas acceptance comes from good experiences, submission comes from bad experiences through to learning a new way which is the new good experience. Submission is corrective education of the horse, Acceptance is learning and implementing new education and training.

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Permalink Reply by Barbara F. on December 3, 2008 at 8:54am

I love everyone's "takes" on all this and it leads me to a few new questions. In an ideal world, the horse would quickly and easily do everything we ask and we would constantly be praising their positive response.
1. When does negative reinforcement come into play?
2. How do you reprimand your horse?
3. How strong should a reprimand be?
4. Is there ever a reason to have a full-out "fight"?

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Permalink Reply by Geoffrey Pannell on December 4, 2008 at 6:06am

Hi Barbara, That ideal world does exist, in fairy land [ LOL ] . This will be interesting to see what everyone thinks about your questions. Lets look at the difference, as I see it , between positive and negative reinforcement . Positive reinforcement or reward training: where a horse behaves on a stimulis to recieve a reward, example; call horse's name, horse comes up to be caught ,feed it some oats. Negative reinforcement: the horse behaves on a stimulus to escape a stimulus , example; the rider applies pressure with the lower leg behind the girth. The horse moves its 1\4s away to escape the pressure of the leg. So going back to your first question Barbara, most of the time we are using negative reinforcement when training our horse's. Reprimand, I think we are talking about punishment now, I don't use punishment except giving a horse that tries to bite a slap. This brings up another kind reinforcement ; contingent reinforcement, to be effective it is contingent upon the response. What I mean by that is the longer the delay the greater the chance the horse does not associate the reinforcement with the response. I'm sure we have all seen the showjump rider who, on refusal at a jump,wheels the horse around and proceeds to whip the horse, usually so long after the refusal that the horse can't associate the whipping with the stop. This action probably helps the rider express his frustrations but the poor horse just gets confusied and frightened, not adding anything to his jumping training. Well I think that also anwsers your last question too, I can't think of any possitive reason for a full- out " fight". I WILL BE INTERESTED to see what everyone thinks of this, Cheers for now, Geoffery. P.S. William , thank you for your full and frank comments , I am throughly enjoying this discussion.

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