Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on January 29, 2012 at 3:54pm

I am not there, and I have not seen the horses. 

I DO NOT like it when mares start acting like a stallion around me.  I would have crawled through the fence too!

I would leave this mare to the handling of her owner, some mares do not like women as much as they do men (been there with mine.)  Since you don't own her you have the luxury of ignoring her.  I would recommend ignoring her completely, no more treats and no more trying to pet her, and everytime you go into her pasture take something, a dressage whip or some rope, that you can use to make her back off and out of your space, and when you make gestures with your whip or rope say NO loudly.  Be consistent about not letting her come into your space!!!  NO exceptions.  Same for the gelding. You are going out to the pasture to get your horse who apparently likes you a good bit.

If your horse will let you catch her without treats I recommend that you never go into the pasture again carrying food.  This happened to me once, I had gotten lazy and started taking out some grain so my horse would come to me.  Finally after a week or so the boss mare decided that my gelding would NOT get the food and I ended up crawling through the fence too after dropping the food.  I never took food out again and the mare never bothered me again once she realized that I was not going to let her just come up to me.  Luckily my horse was easy to catch!

I think that Jill was doing a dominance display, dominance over the other horses and trying to be dominant over you.  STOP FEEDING HER TREATS, by now she seems to think that she, as the boss mare, is ENTITLED to all of your treats, and, as boss mare, feels perfectly free to threaten you if you do not give them to her.  I have never had a mare rear at me, and I've owned five or so including a pregnant/foaled boss mare who ruled her herd with an iron fist if necessary, as well as being around breeding mares at a horse breeder's farm.  Stallions, yes.  Mares and geldings no.  This is not what I consider normal mare behavior.  Leave her ALONE.  Do NOT let her come up to you.  By her behavior she has lost all rights to both your treats and your company.

At least that is what I would do.

 

 

Permalink Reply by Cyndi on January 29, 2012 at 5:31pm

You are right, Jackie, and I have no intention of offering her any more treats!  If I am feeling uncomfortable, that is one feeling I will not ignore!!  That's why I got out of there in the first place  :o)   No sense getting myself in trouble or danger.  I really don't think I'll be asking Jill to join me in a work space either.  I am okay with her in certain situations (I have no problem walking right past her to go cut a hole in the ice in the pond, for example), but I certainly don't trust her when there is another horse nearby.  I'm most certain she can tell that the hair is raised on my neck after a while in those situations, even though I try to fake it and act calm as I get myself out of there.  And I was starting to get that nervous feeling when this rearing occured, and that's why I "got out of Dodge".

When we first arrived at the barn, the other horses would always come over and 'maul' me, even if I had no treats - they did not respect my space at all and were very pushy.  I always had to carry a rope or whip with me, otherwise I felt very intimidated (that has changed as time goes on and we've gotten to know each other better, and I have established myself as someone they can't push over anymore...but I will admit that there are times that my energy may be down and they try to take advantage of that).  My mare would be hesitant to come to me (but once another horse started to come, she would), so I always had to walk out to get her.  And then things changed!!

I had been thinking about my mare's spookish behaviour - on the ground and when I was on her.  As an experiment, I trimmed (thinned out) her VERY FULL AND THICK forelock, to see if her vision was the issue.  The difference was like night and day!  She was less spooky, and she started coming to me as soon as she saw me, no matter where she was in the field!!  These changes occured the day after I trimmed her forelock!  Her forelock is still long and will still work well to protect her eyes from sun (and flies in the summer) and bad weather, but it is thinned out on the sides so that she can see better.  I did that in September or October, and she's willingly come to me every time I've been to the barn since then.  And it was right around that time that the other horses quit coming to me when I'd go into the pasture - maybe because my mare was feeling more confident?  It has been a real treat for me to not even have to step into the pasture sometimes.  I still do have to go in at times because the pasture is very large and backs on to a busy highway (a small stand of trees - and fence, obviously - separates pasture from highway), so if the horses are near the back of the field, they can't hear me, due to traffic noise, or see me unless I go in waving my arms and jumping up and down (there is a roll to the land as well, so that's a reason they don't see me).

In the past, I made sure that Jill kept a safe distance from me, which was fine with her as well, as she didn't show much interest in being around me anyway.  I would approach her once in a while and offer her a treat or a rub, but she never displayed this type of behavior before now.  I hadn't offered her a treat for days before this (and when I did, it was through the fence) - but I will make sure she doesn't get any more from me.

Alas, the poor girl will get no attention from her owner.  She is nothing but a broodmare to him.  She apparently has some good bloodlines in her, but he rarely comes around, not even to just to check on her.  Very sad. No doubt he'll come out when her foal is born, to see what she had, but that's the extent of it.

And yes, I can 'catch' my mare without treats  :o)  It's more like she catches me most times!  She has turned into such a different horse since I thinned out her forelock!  There was one time I walked in the hayfield next to the pasture to go get her, so that I wouldn't have to deal with the other horses coming near us if I went in the pasture, and once she saw me she came right over to the fence.  I told her I'd bring her into the hayfield, so I started to jog along the fence, and she merrily trotted on the other side, beating me to the gate  :o)

Thanks much for your input  :o)

Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on January 29, 2012 at 5:43pm

Good for you listening to your mare and thinning her forelock so she could see you!

Permalink Reply by Cyndi on January 29, 2012 at 6:02pm

I had read about how some breeders will braid the forelock of young horses when they train them, so that the horse can see clearly and not be as spooky.  I tried that with Fanny in the past, but it didn't really work well because the only time she could see clearly was when she had the braid, so she was still spooky due the fact that suddenly she could see everything, and it was overwhelming!  I thought I'd give the trim a try, so that she could get used to seeing her surroundings in a new way and get used to them.

A lot of people have said not to touch the beautiful forelock she was sporting, but it's not all about appearance, it's about what makes her feel safe and comfortable, so I gave it a try.  I'm so happy it worked!  :o)

Here's her "before" picture and her "after" picture...

Permalink Reply by Marlene Thoms on January 29, 2012 at 5:27pm

I agree with all Jackie's suggestions. Mixing treats with multiple horses can be very risky and this mare may have just been trying a little aggressive/playful action this time, but it could soon escalate or stir everyone up into a display that you do not want to be in the middle of. Not to mention your own mare could be a little offended that you are treating somone else (read recent article on horse rules elsewhere on this forum.) Ignoring this other mare and just going about your business, and making her back off if necessary, may not seem to work at first because she will expect you to treat as before, but she will gradually get the message if you are consistent and persistent. As always keep you wits about you and eyes in the back of your head with this bossy mare.

Permalink Reply by Cyndi on January 29, 2012 at 5:51pm

Thanks Marlene  :o)  Will do.  We'll go back to how things were when I first arrived at the barn - she keeps her distance, and I keep mine.  It's a nice mutual understanding  :o)

And you're right about my mare not being happy sometimes when I share "her" treats with the others.  She will be thrilled with not having to share anymore.

Jill and one other young mare belong to breeders who rarely come out to see them.  The one other horse, a Friesian gelding, is owned by the barn owner, but doesn't get a lot of attention either.  He is groomed and fussed over by the barn owner once in a while, but he is never worked with, ridden, etc..  I guess I was just feeling sorry for these other horses and was trying too hard to be a friend and some consistent human contact for them...as little as that is.  The Friesian is good with the barn owner - he can whistle for the gelding from the barn and that horse will race to him from the back of the pasture; he stands well while the barn owner trims his feet; he can be led by the barn owner just by gently placing his hand under the horse's jaw - but he's not that good around me, so I'm best to leave him be.  I am content to focus solely on my mare from now on  :o)

Permalink Reply by Marlene Thoms on January 29, 2012 at 6:14pm

p.s. I really like your mares "make over". Now you can see her sweet face. I like horses to have mostly full forelocks and manes, but there's a practical aspect too.

Permalink Reply by Cyndi on January 29, 2012 at 6:19pm

Thanks Marlene, she really is a sweet horse  :o)

Permalink Reply by Cyndi on January 30, 2012 at 2:29pm

Aha!!  Mystery solved!  I was at the barn this morning and told my barn owner about the experience I had with Jill last week.  He checked the calendar in the feed room and said that she started her heat cycle on Jan 25th.  That explains it!!  And that explains why she doesn't look pregnant to me...because she's not!!  The barn owner said that Jill lost the foal fairly early into her pregnancy, but by then it was too late to re-breed her (for timing of the new foal's birth).  So now I know  :o)

And it's no secret that when Jill is in heat, she will NOT leave you alone.  Today I had to swing a rope in a huge circle to get her to back off enough so I could let my mare get through the gate, because Jill kept "pushing" (with her body language) my mare away.

Permalink Reply by Nicola Barnes on February 4, 2012 at 8:18am

It sounds like she has become quite attached to you! Maybe, she started rearing because she wants to come to you, you know like if you hold some dogs back from their owners they start to back up and bark? She might feel like that, but horses most preferably I could guess don't like moving backwards out of choice, so instead she reared up. But in rearing, she could also be showing that she was frustrated at not being near you. The reason to her wariness, I wouldn't fully know, but it's possible she could have been mistreated or scared as a young horse or foal. I don't know how old/young she is, but if that is the case then her finding someone who loves her and cares about her (you) would be someone she wouldn't want to willingly part with. And also, when you said she saw you behind her when she was about to kick, she just stopped. That's a sure sign that she respects you and obviously cares about you. I don't know what you could do to help back her away easier when you want to be with your mare, but she obviously wants the attention your mare would be receiving.

I understand you feeling uncomfortable, but let me tell you a little story.

There's this mare at my grandma's farm who had recently become the lead mare. For 3 years she charged at ANYONE, and she tried to bite and kick, she wouldn't let anyone touch her, she would just put her ears back and bare her teeth. One day I walked down to the field to say hello to all the horses (8 then, now 10). Baby, (the lead mare), saw me, and although I was basically at the opposite side of the field from her, she spun around, put her ears back, bared her teeth, and charged. I froze right there, I was about to run, but then I suddenly stood up straight and put my arms out to make myself seem bigger. That did not make her falter, but neither did it discourage me. I put my arms backed down, and right infront of me, she skidded to a halt. She was in mid bite, when I gathered my courage and reflexes, and I slapped her hard on the muzzle, NOT with a fist, that's not nice, but a normal slap. She stopped, right there and then. After that, she pricked her ears and I stroked her, telling her she was a good girl. Now, I can even groom her stomach :) She knows now that I am the 'lead mare' and she is not to twist that around.

My horse used to be nervous, but last year I was 'playing' with him. He galloped towards me, around me, tossed his head and pranced, and when he had had enough he came towards me =)

Sorry, I went a bit off track with the second, but yes, don't let her intimidate you. We all have different opinions, but I say don't ignore her, acknowledge her presence, it sounds like she needs someone to love her. But when you need her to do something, let her know she must do it when you want her too.

I also know a horse at 'my' stables that used to bite. Everyone got sick of it, so did I... so I put my thoughts into action. I passed him purposely at dinner time, the time he tended to bite most, with my dandy brush in my hand. As he lunged at me with an evil looking face and bared teeth, I whipped out my dandy brush (ninja!) and held it to where he had directed his muzzle. As he was about to close his mouth on 'me', he pricked his muzzle on the brissly, yet unharmful dandy brush and got a huge fright. Since then, he hasn't bitten once, except when you do his girth. And now anyone can stroke him even when he eats :)

Hope I helped you in someway, let me know how it all goes with Jill :)

Nikki

Permalink Reply by Cyndi on February 4, 2012 at 9:58am

Wow, you are one courageous girl, Nikki!!!

I haven't been in the barnyard since my last post.  When I go to get Fanny, the other horses have ignored us, so I just take her out and don't interact with the others.

I think Jill is around 9-11 years old, at least that's what my barn owner thinks.  He is pretty sure that Jill has been mistreated in the past, and that's why she is afraid to cross her stall doorway (I mentioned in my initial post that she rushes through the doorway, both going in and coming out).  He also thinks she was hit in the face/head, due to some head shyness.  He has been able to  trim her hooves and do some light grooming on her, with no problems, but he is such a super gentle and calm man.  Not that I'm not gentle and calm, but he has so much more experience, and he's been around her for a lot longer than I have.  However, even he doesn't trust her when she's in heat.

I still feel nervous being near her, and that is not good, so that is why I will keep my distance.  I try to be calm, and use slow gentle movements when interacting with her, but I get a tingly feeling in my stomach and I can't ignore that.  I don't feel completely safe when she is loose, so it's best to just stay away.  If she's in her stall, I feel much safer and am more relaxed to stand nearby and speak gently to her, but even then there are times when I don't feel comfortable, just because of her body language.   When she's out in the paddock, I don't think she'd try to bite or anything like that, but she's kind of fidgety, so her movements are jerky, which keeps me on my guard and I am not relaxed.  Plus, even though she's with me, the other horses all come over, and that is more dangerous.

So the barn owner and I just do whatever needs to be done when we're with the horses, and we treat Jill with kindness.  That's all we can do at this point - just show her that not all people are mean.

Permalink Reply by Marlene Thoms on February 4, 2012 at 1:33pm

One thing that someone might just try with Jill, is a magnesium supplement. although my gelding obviously doesn't deal with PMS like Jill has to, he has definitely had his spooky, grumpy phases. I found a diet change, taking him off alfalfa and adding magnesium and grass hay produced a definite attitude adjustment, even when nothing else changed. In a couple of days some improvement, in a week or two a world of difference. As far as using a brush in self defence when nipping, my guy was originally pretty touchy about touching and downright nippy during girthing (past issues with bad saddles/girthing?). So I had my metal rake in one hand (between me and his face, but sort of randomly positioned there, paying no attention) while I brushed or rubbed his "sensitive" girth area. Once or twice he tried a quick nip and oops! managed to bite the rake. I otherwise paid no attention, did not threaten or notice his "demise". He didn't carry on nipping too often after that. There's a difference between going at a horse with a crop or weapon, or deliberately smacking them in the face (which I wouldn't do), and letting them deal with a badly aimed nip on their own. Also as far as acting jumply and spooky, my guy did that to me too. His hoof trimmer handles him very well, but he said if he puts up a big spook that makes me jump, it's okay to spook back too, it might scare him into smartening up. So I'm still not "threatening", I don't react aggressively. It did sort of work. And when he's being calmer, I schmooze him and butter him up so he finds out it's just more enjoyable that way. You have to do what you think works for you or her, though. If the two of you find a way to work around each other at a safe distance , that's okay, till one of you feels comfortable with initiating something different. I don't like multiple horses crowding me, too many chances for someone to just step away from another one nipping and bang you are on the bottom of the pile. Your safety is number one. Your only danger would be getting too comfortable with what is really a dangerous situation.

Oh, and hey, I started taking a magnesium supplement too, and now I don't feel as jumpy around him either! lol.

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