Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by horsylover on July 17, 2009 at 7:25am

i think we donlt ride the paper work and that every breed has the ability to do well in any disaplime as long as we as the rider's understand you can pull a trailer with a porsche but maybe not for long! and as long as we donlt expect more than the horse than it can phsysically can give then we will reach our goals . i have sen some pretty intresting warmbloods that where not so wonderful at dressage and quarter horses that where great dressage movers so i think we as trainers and riders need to purchase ,breed,train with the understanding that we need to ask of our equine partners to give the very best that they can . as for in the ring i have seen it all and think it is great to see other breeds in disapline we would not expect. hard work dedication , and good training and direction
can go a long way good luck to all horse owners and ride for your dream

Permalink Reply by Donna Humber on July 17, 2009 at 8:58am

I feel that if a pink striped rhino can do a nice test, then let him do it & be marked accordingly.
If the judge doesn't LIKE rhino's { or STB's, or Arabs or Drafts }, then reflect it in the impression marks, but for heavens sake, give the marks where they are due.
I think at the higher levels, there is less of this, as it takes a specific set of skills to achieve the collection & movement required. However, at the lower levels, it BOILS me to see happy shiny kids on their gleaming STB\Clyde\app\pony X.....come back in tears because some judge said their horse wasn't "suitable". If they took the time to prepare, and were capable of the test, then they should be encouraged. Where do they think the next generation of Dressage riders will come from? Not just from a fancy barn with hot & cold running WB's, but also from a muddy field, with a kid in sneakers on a retired something-or-other, that has a surprisingly lovely canter. It happens. Quit often, around here.
I HATE prejudice in any form, but particularly with regard to horse breeds, as individuals of many unlikely breeds can and do excell at Dressage. Those of us who love the disipline, should NOT be discouraging...we should be promoting.
To end rant & address the question, I think there IS bias against AND for certain breeds { and colours, for heaven's sake} , but as judging is always a bit subjective, I only note those tendencies, and never book that judge again. This actually worked with one judge, who inquired why she wasn't booked a second time. I told her honestly, that everyone at the show noticed how the greys always placed higher, even the bucking balky one, and she was unaware of it !!!! IMAGINE !!! She DID come back, and was completely fair. ONE down, 5 million to go.
Big should NOT = good; but a 17H balanced, black horse with 4 whites just CATCHES the eye in extension, where a 14.1H Arab may not. That isn't fair, but it is a reality. I ride a Perch X Morgan. There is prejudice against her also, but I just say we have to be twice as good to do half as well.....and it inspires me.
I also do not go to shows where there is a known unfairness in the judging, and when asked, I say why...because the best way to protest is with your wallet.

Permalink Reply by Ari on July 17, 2009 at 1:45pm

I completely agree with that. I compete not only in dressage, but also in hunter/jumper shows, and I actually find that the dressage is a little bit less prejeduced. I have a stocky, 'cow-pony' style mare, and a few people asked why she was at a hunter show instead of a cattle drive. I find that the judges also prefer to look at a taller, 'warmbloodey' horses. As well, I rode a pony in a show, and my friends on the sidelines told me that the judge did not look at us once. I guess the pony just wasn't flashy enough for the judge.
That being said, maybe the warmbloods do throw out their legs a little more at the extended trot and round their neck more when they're on the bit - that's what they're bred for: to be big, bold, and flashy. What I don't like is when the judge chooses the warmblood just because of their looks - once I took my grade Quarter Horse, who moves nicely and isn't sloppy with her feet, in a show and found that we were upstaged by a bumbling, clumsy warmblood who never looked where he was putting his feet.

Permalink Reply by Mary McGuire Smith on July 17, 2009 at 11:44am

Hi Ann,

This seems to be the age-old question about dressage competition. Remember, we are talking about the exhibition of the training, and that is where we have to separate what is the purpose of the training of the horse vs. what is the purpose of showing the horse.

I tell my students that a show is like a recital...it is a demonstration of the training and talent of your horse (and you).

There are variables. Just like in a human dance recital, there will be dancers there with impeccable technical training and commitment but limited natural ability, dancers with great natural ability but little or imperfect training, and the luckiest of all--dancers with great natural ability AND great technical training, AND focus, commitment and desire. They will win most of the time. Deal with it...that is they way it is supposed to be.

So it is with horses, and here is the kicker--we can't breed humans for ability in one field or another ;-) but we CAN breed horses along those lines...so the natural ability is enhanced in the breeds that have been developed with dressage exhibition as the goal. Can we really (and why would we want to?) discriminate against the very qualities that the breeders and horses of those breeds that have been diligently developing for the dressage competition arena just to "level the playing field" for those horses/breeds that have been developed along different lines (speed, pulling, plowing, etc.)??

There are MANY examples of "exceptions that prove the rule" in every breed at every level up through the Olympic Grand Prix (think of Lendon Gray's connemara cross pony, or Hilda Gurney's American Thoroughbred), but on every level, expect the easiest route to be with a horse whose type has been developed to make the journey up the levels of dressage as easy--mentally as well as physically--as possible.
That is as it should be. Dressage is simple, but no one said it is easy--even with the most talented of horses/breeds!

I truly do not think that certain breeds are marked more highly--ALL breeds are marked against an IDEAL. Those horses that come closest to that ideal are marked more highly than the ones that do not. QUALITY is as important as technical execution, but there is still an ideal standard to which that quality is compared. The better-trained our judges are (and I truly believe dressage judges are better trained to the ideal than other subjective disciplines, since they have to justify each of their scores with written comments every ride they judge) the more consistently the scores and placings are in keeping with the ideal standard.

Size is another story--and in a word, no, big(ger) does not equal good(er)--that is a myth...one that was started by trainers that wanted their clients to buy horses that the trainer got to ride, but the client couldn't (and yes, there are exceptions....before I get flamed too badlly :-))

Permalink Reply by Ann Hatfield on July 20, 2009 at 1:49am

Nicely said, everyone!

I am a believer in people buying horses that suit the discipline they want to work in most. (And this is how, as an amateur trainer, I have ended with many nice horses that were circles people were trying hard to fit into squares.

I also firmly believe that dressage is marvellous training, note training, for any horse, even for example, my portly Fjord, who, would throttle herself, with her fat throatlatch, if asked to carry her face vertical. I think many of us can have fun at low levels of competiton with horses that are not bred or built to produce the 'classic' stride. I do wince, when I see people insisting that some round, little beastie, well-ridden though it might be, and doing the best it can, should be marked on a par with another individual of a breed that produces an extended trot that looks as if it could go from one cloud to another.

However, I, too, have seen very nice homebreds, crossbreds, non-traditional-looking dressage horses, who appeared well trained and moved very well, to my eye, but who never seemed to get high marks when the XYZ breed did all weekend.

Like the story of the gray-loving judge, some of the judges may be oblivious to their biases, but I think the breed biases are there.

Permalink Reply by Jan Jollymour on July 29, 2009 at 10:28pm

Hi, everyone:

I agree with Mary, and with Ann, both as a competitor and as a judge. While it must be admitted that I have occasionally run into breed/colour biases with judges, those experiences have been few and far between, throughout 40 years of training and competing.

There are LOTS of poor-quality warmbloods out there, who DON'T get scores just because they're warmbloods, and there are also lots of quarterhorses, TB's, Arabs, crosses, etc., who can and do knock your socks off when you're sitting in the booth.

I am personally not really a Friesian fan (I'm not big on big hair), but I have a client with a Friesian mare I'd be honoured to sit on, and certainly honoured to judge. Her scores so far this year (her first in competition) are proving me right, regardless of the wide perception that judges don't like Friesians. I've seen Arabs I've drooled over, Appendix QH's (and 2 QH stallions) I'd give my eyeteeth for, and I do know of Fjords doing GP, and pretty well!

I think we should try to ride what we like and enjoy, and then do our best with that, whatever it is. I have in training right now a 16.3+ Westfalen gelding who's s huge mover, but his 51 year owner doesn't want to sit on that any more, so she's riding our 14.3 hh Arab/QH corss, and having a ball! That's what matters, and frankly, the little guy's likely to score better than the big guy due his sheer joy in working and the concomitant joy evidenced by his rider!

Permalink Reply by Jan Jollymour on July 29, 2009 at 10:29pm

Hey:

Sorry about the typos above - my new browser stops me seeing the page once I get to a certain point, so I'm writing completely blind...J

Permalink Reply by Mered30 on August 8, 2009 at 11:40am

I agree with everybody else. It doesn't matter the breed.