Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Anna Hawke on December 17, 2009 at 10:53am

I could not imagine ever wanting to push my beliefs and riding system onto anybody else, all I can fathom is sharing my knowledge with another who is interested ready able and willing to learn; and that I would never push my beliefs on another who did not ask to learn from me. I have been astounded, I mean astounded by the numbers of people who have tried at great lengths to try to push upon me what tTHEY think is right and what THEY want to see me doing differently when I have never asked for any input and I have been very happy in what I am doing on my own. I am not changing my system it works beautifully for me and my horses, and it is a pity that there are such a large number of other riders who are not able to understand celebrate and share in the differences and variety of different successful training methods without calling what is different abusive.

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Permalink Reply by Anna Hawke on December 17, 2009 at 11:09am

I know I have suffered far more abuse than any other person I know who rides dressage because of the system I ride in. My horses have not suffered. Perhaps the abuse I have suffered due to being different has made me a stronger person because of the adversity I have faced however I have not a shadow of a doubt that I could have obtained that strength of character in non- abusive ways. The abuse I have seen has never really ever been about my horses, my horses are doing fine they are great, it has been about me being different. It is that close minded elitist attitude in the sport of dressage that defeats the principles of the sport, not the Rollkur training method.

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Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on December 17, 2009 at 3:00pm

I am sorry that you got abused by people. I ride another unpopular system, the Forward Seat, and have learned to ignore people. One alternative I used was to board at non-hunt seat stables until I got my own land. Needless to say I went decades without seeing another FS rider. This time alone REALLY helped me explore the FS on the flat, and thus learn how to ride horses better.
I ride in an extended frame (with the horse's head low if the horse desires), so I am at the other end of the low-head debate, and I got tired of instructors DEMANDING that I abuse my horse (or their horse) by forcing him into a "pretend collection" head set.
I do not know your definition of Rollkur, and to what extent you ride it. Since I do not ride dressage, I discovered this debate only a few years ago. In ALL dressage I see things that I, as a FS rider, will never try on my horse.
If your horses are happy with your riding, all power to you. It is very difficult to ride well.

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Permalink Reply by Anna Hawke on December 17, 2009 at 4:31pm

Jackie, it was refreshing to read your story, thank you for sharing your experiences.

Regarding abuse, you may not be sure I was abused, however I am certain I have been abused by others in the sport of dressage because of my style. My point is exactly that not everyone will ever agree or ride in the same method an idea you support. My point also is that it is not up to others to impose their way on anybody else. I never asked for anybody to agree with me, all I needed was to be left alone to ride how I do I am confident in my training. I also am open to sharing but it is not my priority nor is it a necessity in order for me to train my horses. What is necessary for me to train my horses is peace, not hoards of negative opinions about the method I use, opinions that I have never asked for but that have been imposed upon me because I ride differently than the majority of dressage riders here in the US.

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Permalink Reply by Elizabeth Gormley on December 18, 2009 at 12:40pm

I think that everyone here is actively avoiding abusing their horse. I think we are all trying to find a better way to train and therefore should continue the discussion of this issue even if sometimes in concern for improvement people say things that sound harsh. The more objective proof we have the less painful this will be to discuss. I think on Barnmice ppl are nicer than on other sites though.

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Permalink Reply by Anna Hawke on December 17, 2009 at 4:53pm

as for the abuse I have suffered nobody punched me out, it was not physical it has mostly all been verbal but verbal abuse can be very destructive. There have been other things to, people cutting of part of one of my horses tail, or putting dead rats in my tack truck etc. Things done to me, my horses and my equipment to give me a "message" that I am not welcomed. I have seen some very dark sides of human nature just because I ride my horse in non traditional or classical system. It has not been nice for me that is for sure. It has not changed what I do but it has made what I do difficult to focus on when I have to worry about what others are going to do to me or say about me because of it.

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Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on December 18, 2009 at 1:10pm

Dead rats in your tack trunk. YUCK!!!
I never got that type of abuse, just mostly amused disrespect. Moving out of hunt seat stables the amused disrespect continued, plus there was a lack of decent arenas. So I learned to do my training in the pastures and on trails, perfectly safe for FS as it was developed for cross country work. I do not know if your riding style is easily transferable outside the arena.
Usually I do not allow my horses behind vertical at all, basically because it does not fit with FS at all. In fact the only automatic response I seem to have riding is my legs automatically giving forward aids whenever my horse goes behind vertical (rarely.) However today I made an exception. I was trying to ride before the forecast rain/sleet/snow moved in (my horse told my I was crazy.) I got out into the arena and it started sleeting. Whenever my mare was headed into the wind and the sleet pellets started pinging on her face, Mia would tuck her head down and in. So long she extended her nose out when the wind was behind her I really did not mind. In fact I was laughing at myself, here I was a FS rider VERY against Rollkur/LDR in MY OWN riding and there was my mare doing LDR so the sleet would not hit her face!
Rollkur has a definite image problem. It does not help when the dressage riders insist on lengthy warm-ups with the horse's chin plastered to his chest. Personally, when I see those warm-ups, I am so glad that I never got into dressage and I feel REALLY sorry for these horses. BUT these are not the only horses I feel sorry for, in dressage, hunt seat, saddle seat, western etc., I see plenty of instances of riding that I think is abusive to the horse.
In a way, with my MS, I am lucky that I am so totally dependent on the horse's cooperation and ability to cover ground without constant direction, that I have the perfect excuse not to join whatever fashion is in style (and not just Rollkur, there have been many others.) No, I don't like most of the Rollkur I've seen (chin plastered to the chest especially), but so long your horse is happy to have you riding him and does not feel abused--that's what I consider important, much more important than whatever style you ride in.

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Permalink Reply by Bernd on December 19, 2009 at 5:34am

I love this discussion, even though I have to look up words in the dictionary about all this biomechanical stuff...

I think there is a big difference wether you ride your own horse, excercising for some decent level or whether you want to compete on international top level.

I see many horses on medium level and some riders try to use Rollkur / hyperflexion or whatever we call it. However in almost all cases they create more problems than anything else. Their horses loose impulsion and suppleness, some even the rythm or the contact. Most are still behind the reins when entering the arena. It depends how strong the judges feel about it, but I have seen some getting sent home with 45%. In Germany judges are becoming more and more critical on this.

On top level the riders manage to get the horse back in shape for the test as the have more skills to preserve the forward tendency in the horse. The Hyperflexion buys them more control during warmup and a feeling of having a more flexible horse. There is no question that many riders feel that it gives them an advantage. I'm not sure about the biomechanical reasonings. I think many people use biomechanical explanations either way.

And for these things like rats in trucks etc., that is criminal behavior that should be sanctioned accordingly.

Ciao
bernd

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Permalink Reply by Anna Hawke on December 19, 2009 at 12:53am

The idea of trying to explain to you via text only what I have learned challenges me. Normally I have either a horse I am riding to show somebody or they have a horse they are riding and can feel what I am telling them. Not being an expert on horse anatomy (by expert I mean I am not a vet and I have not dedicated myself to the study for many years) it is difficult for me to explain to you the mechanics of the horse. I have one way I can think of at the moment to try to explain to you what I know. Please note I am not a master by any stretch of the imagination at LDR but I am a student. I would love more than anything to return to Holland and maybe I will if I am lucky enough to be there again to learn more. I love what I know and I would love to invest myself into learning more.
Here is the way I can attempt to explain a bit of what I have learned, through an exercise you can try while you are reading:
Sit in a chair, just relax, and let your chin drop to your chest like a sweet old man who fell asleep in his favorite chair after dinner while reading a book. If you let your head drop down gently without forcing it you should feel a gentle stretch along your spine and your shoulders should loosen and relax as well. Stay in that position and take a few deep breaths relaxing a little more with each breath and let your stretch slowly get deeper, let your spine round and your shoulders drop. You can take this stretch fairly deep while remaining relaxed, and your body becomes loose. A loose body and a relaxed spine are a big component of a successful stretch. OK now you can come up, look around and most likely you are now more relaxed and less tense sitting in your chair with your head raised and chin up prior to your stretch. It is in the deep stretch with time and practice that you can start to play and have fun, but that part comes much later and there are so many other components involved with doing so but I am just trying to give you one simple basic idea to what I know.
Now please try one more thing. Force your chin to your chest and hold it there with tension. Now yank it into your chest deep as if somebody were pulling it in. Your shoulders will come forward, your back will hollow out and it is very uncomfortable.
Your chin is on your chest just as before but what your body is feeling is not at all comfortable and you can not relax this way. Perhaps this is what many people think they are seeing when they see a horse ridden in Rollkur yet it may not be at all the horse is doing if the horse is ridden and taught the first stretch I explained and not the second.
One of the biggest things I learned is how much time it takes to work with my horse on the most simple feeling of moving relaxed soft and loose. Not doing a number of movements and calling it a day, but doing nothing more than walk trot and canter soft, round, relaxed and loose, and taking the time to get THAT feeling. Also doing transitions with that feeling even if all I did was just that. When I began after much time to get that feeling, trying the movements were as easy as just asking for them.
I am not explaining this well, it is very hard for me to explain because it is not what is seems and my words can not seem to do justice to the training system I learned or to what I feel, or to the timing it takes to achieve that relaxation for positive results in the simple basic walk trot and canter, and transitions. Maybe I can think about it and try again to explain better next time. I am not sure any of what I have said will be helpful or do any justice to the system, and if it is not helpful and does not do justice to the system understand that I will be the first to tell you it is not the system, it is me who can not explain it to you today because of my inadequacies, not those of who I have learned from and am in a way may be representing at the moment.

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Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on December 19, 2009 at 12:45pm

I find this interesting. It sounds like you do a lot of work that I do with the head down, the main difference is that my horse's nose is always out in front of vertical. I also work for loose, relaxed movement, nice and soft (it takes time), always working so that the back loosens up enough so that the hind legs can learn to swing freely. In FS I do this work for a different purpose, I seek to develop the strength of the back and neck so that the horse gradually carries his head higher, with the intermediate goal of a head/neck angle of approximately 45 degrees, with the poll coming gradually up so that it is above a horizontal line from the top of the withers. During all elevations of the head I work for smooth transitions, taking great care that the head never goes behind the 45 degrees except when the horse voluntarily does it momentarily to move better.
When the wonderful day comes that my horses front and read legs feel like they are moving like pendulums, I know that I can advance (slowly) to more demanding work on the flat.
Since I do not ride dressage my long term goals are very different, namely calm, efficient and extended movement. It does sound like our initial goals have similarities.

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Permalink Reply by Anna Hawke on December 19, 2009 at 11:57am

OK great, thats swell, I am glad all was not lost in my attempt at translation. Thank you for your feedback:)

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Permalink Reply by Bernd on December 21, 2009 at 9:13am

Hi,
the explanation is very well, even though it produced in my imagination a picture of my horse sitting in an armchair falling asleep after dinner with the latest FEI progressive list at its legs. :-)))

However your description sounds like you have to do it without using force. But one of the main objections is that the rider uses a brute force method by pulling heavily on the curb bit, or any kind of reins. I think it is the impression that this method is painful for the horse what generates the furious reactions. It just doesn't look like someone was using it as way to make the horse relax.

So with what you learned in the Netherlands, how did they explain you what to do? Do you need to pull heavily on the reins? What do you do to preserve the forward energy of the horse? What if you have made the horse go LDR, how do you get it up in shape again? And how do you prevent it from coming behind the bit?

I agree its probably very dificult to explain in writing but as long as we don't have real virtual reality you cannot show it by riding as a holographic image in my computerroom to demonstrate your explanations.

Ciao
Bernd

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