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Body language of horses; the calming signals
In the video "Linda Parelli shows how to effectivly hit with the snap" I commented on the horses use of what I call "calming signals". Since there were some interesst in what I wrote I thougth we could talk about it in this forum thread.
I wrote (so I don't have to repeat myself):
Cartoonracher wrote: "When the young woman is trying to back her horse away (under the big tree), he's obviously confused and "over" the whole lesson. He's tuning her out because nothing he's done has been rewarded. It's nothing but non-stop horse-irritating."
I reacted especially to that scene, too. At first the girl is trying to back the horse when he is in front of the tree. Horses don't have good depth perception, especially backwards, so it seems he is asked to back into the tree, something he feels he can't.
After this the horse is seemingly tuning her out, something Linda claims is disrespectful. The sad thing about it is that the horse is NOT tuning her out, the horse is communicating with horse body language that he is not wanting any conflict. I talk about this in my body language clinics a lot, because not many people seems to be aware of the horses
"calming signals".
Horses use these signals when they feel pressured and wants to let the person understand that they perceive them as agitated/aggressive, but that the person can calm down, because they do not pose any threat to them.
Some of the comments here has been about the horse arching away and trying to turn away from the people. What the horse is trying to do is to signal that he's NOT a threat, and by that it's trying to get the person to not be so aggressive. This is the very opposite of disrespect!
The worst thing about the horses calming signals is that it provokes people. People feel ignored and that is for a human a big provocation. Especially when they have been taught that this is a disrespectful sign from the horse! It's a bit off topic here, but I mention it because it's part of the problem with the clip; not only is she using a horrible technique, she is also gravely misreading the horse!
Even a mild correction would have been wrong when the horse is signaling "lets just have peace - I don't wish to fight with you"… if a horse gives you that message and you correct it you are basically telling it "I don't want peace - and I do want to have a fight".
Like I said, it's off topic, but if someone wants me to explain more about these signals I can, we could always make a separate discussion about it.
The horses calming signals is something I haven't written about before although I talk about this in my clinics. There are a couple of reasons for that: one, I don't know how to begin writing about it - in a clinic it comes naturally when a horse displays the signals - and also because I don't know how much people knows about this already. In Scandinavia, where I live and teach, I know that my students says that this is news to them, but for all I know this is common knowledge in Canada :)
Another big reason is that what I am talking about goes against what most trainers believe in, and rocks the foundation of what many people consider natural horsemanship. I think...
Last, but not least; it is a big topic... so to write about it is a big task, but I will do so if I see that people truly are interessted in what I am talking about :)
That is why I want this to be in a discussion form, to get a grasp of what you know about this already, and also to be able to show some video clips to show you what I am talking about.
To not make this text too long I think it's a good idea if I write seperate posts about the different signals. That way I can add on information as I see what people have questions about :)
I wrote (so I don't have to repeat myself):
Cartoonracher wrote: "When the young woman is trying to back her horse away (under the big tree), he's obviously confused and "over" the whole lesson. He's tuning her out because nothing he's done has been rewarded. It's nothing but non-stop horse-irritating."
I reacted especially to that scene, too. At first the girl is trying to back the horse when he is in front of the tree. Horses don't have good depth perception, especially backwards, so it seems he is asked to back into the tree, something he feels he can't.
After this the horse is seemingly tuning her out, something Linda claims is disrespectful. The sad thing about it is that the horse is NOT tuning her out, the horse is communicating with horse body language that he is not wanting any conflict. I talk about this in my body language clinics a lot, because not many people seems to be aware of the horses
"calming signals".
Horses use these signals when they feel pressured and wants to let the person understand that they perceive them as agitated/aggressive, but that the person can calm down, because they do not pose any threat to them.
Some of the comments here has been about the horse arching away and trying to turn away from the people. What the horse is trying to do is to signal that he's NOT a threat, and by that it's trying to get the person to not be so aggressive. This is the very opposite of disrespect!
The worst thing about the horses calming signals is that it provokes people. People feel ignored and that is for a human a big provocation. Especially when they have been taught that this is a disrespectful sign from the horse! It's a bit off topic here, but I mention it because it's part of the problem with the clip; not only is she using a horrible technique, she is also gravely misreading the horse!
Even a mild correction would have been wrong when the horse is signaling "lets just have peace - I don't wish to fight with you"… if a horse gives you that message and you correct it you are basically telling it "I don't want peace - and I do want to have a fight".
Like I said, it's off topic, but if someone wants me to explain more about these signals I can, we could always make a separate discussion about it.
The horses calming signals is something I haven't written about before although I talk about this in my clinics. There are a couple of reasons for that: one, I don't know how to begin writing about it - in a clinic it comes naturally when a horse displays the signals - and also because I don't know how much people knows about this already. In Scandinavia, where I live and teach, I know that my students says that this is news to them, but for all I know this is common knowledge in Canada :)
Another big reason is that what I am talking about goes against what most trainers believe in, and rocks the foundation of what many people consider natural horsemanship. I think...
Last, but not least; it is a big topic... so to write about it is a big task, but I will do so if I see that people truly are interessted in what I am talking about :)
That is why I want this to be in a discussion form, to get a grasp of what you know about this already, and also to be able to show some video clips to show you what I am talking about.
To not make this text too long I think it's a good idea if I write seperate posts about the different signals. That way I can add on information as I see what people have questions about :)
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on
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I think that because they can only speak to us in body language, she might be saying, oh no, don't get on because of a reason..... like my back hurts or I'm feeling unsettled today.. I listen..... I say, if you are moving away and you don't want me to get on, I wonder why....... but alot of people might say, just stand here you stupid horse so I can get on...... one time my Oliver wouldn't let me touch him much and I didn't know why till I looked and saw his sheath totally swollen... he had been stung by a bee..... he kept moving away so sweet like, no, please don't touch me.... I could have provoked him to the point of kicking me but I just looked around for what I was missing...he was so sweet after that like he noticed me paying attention to what he was saying. :) my trainer is smart, but he is very experienced and he tells me that he learns from my learning... like I think we all do when a newbie comes on line, starting with something new, and reminds us of things we thought we new but through their eyes reminds us of the little things... and that he is really excited to see the baby horse he adopted for me responding to me in a way that our bond is really strong now, when a year ago I told him I though he needed to take Oliver and I was just a LOSER..... I think he's like a proud papa..... my next step in my development now that I have worked on myself being not so scared is working more on myself to read the horses behavior and see if I am missing anything.... and being more aware... Oliver likes it when I notice things.. it makes him trust more and it makes him more confident in me. Like he doesn't have to worry about anything because I'm on it.. which trust me, I'm just learning... I have a LONG way to go before I feel confident in keeping my horse safe out in the real world...
this might be too much of a new discussion, but have you ever had her "read" by a true communicator???? it's perty cool....
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Permalink Reply by Cyndi on
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Trust is something I had to work on too. When I first got Fanny, I trusted her very much, because the breeder I got her from said that she was gentle, kind, sensitive, and eager to please. Then I took some training...that starts with the letter "P", and the instructor succeeded in making me fearful by telling me about all the dangerous things that horses can/will do to you. So then I had to start all over in learning to trust Fanny. I am much better, and I tend to give her the benefit of the doubt in most situations.
The one place I do fail in trusting her is when I get on her. She will occasionally spook when I'm on her, for the simplest reasons, so it catches me off guard every time. She will jump forward, then sidestep, and then stop. My balance isn't what it used to be, so I usually end up sliding off her. So when I get on, I try to relax, but I am wary of whether or not something is going to spook her. One time she walked past one of those huge horse balls and my foot tapped it as we went by and that made her spook. I slide out of the saddle, end up on the ground, and she comes walking over to me. I've been told that she 'has my number' and knows she can get away with it. When I want to get on her and she moves away, people will tell me that if I let her keep doing that, she will learn that if she does it I won't get on.
I have had Bowen therapy to help balance my body, but I do need to learn to keep my balance on her. Spending time on her would help, but if she doesn't want me on her, I can't practice...and so the cycle continues... lol
I did have a communicator look at a pic of her through the "Natural Horse Network" radio show. He said that she is in good health and that she wanted to spend more time with me. That was last fall. To be honest, I'm not sure how much faith to put in that kind of stuff. I'm not really into it. I have nothing against anyone who does believe in it though :o)
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Permalink Reply by Sarah Siler on
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I have a couple of friends on FaceBook that are into Reiki, I'm with you, I'm not sure I really have any faith at all in that kind of stuff, especially when done long distance, also like you I have nothing against anyone that does believe. You hit the nail on the head when you said you need to spend more time riding her. When Star and I started our life journey together, she spooked a lot too, nothing serious, just a quick jump and that was it; I quickly learned to relax and just go with her, not easy even as a younger person. Not sure I would be that flexible and balanced now, lol, the old body just isn't the same, lol. Which is one reason I'm so enjoying Rip, out on trail he's a very calm natured, nothing much bothers him, kind of horse. I don't know your situtation so please take that into consideration, you might think about preparing your riding area before you go in...doing things like moving the ball, not out of the area, just over to a place where there's no chance of you hitting it accidentally, do that with everything possible. If there are jumps in the area, those will have to stay put, but move anything that's easily moved, again not out of the area, just out of the way. Maybe find a riding partner, with a horse that Fanny gets along with real well, and start riding with her in the arena. You wouldn't have to ride side by side all the time because you don't want to cause another buddy-up problem, it's just that sometimes having another trusted friend will help a spooky horse. These are things I've done for others, after our spooky start, Star became the trusted friend...I will say she is not spookless, personally I don't believe in spookless/bomb proof horses, but that's JMO.
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Permalink Reply by Marlene Thoms on
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Cyndi, some of what you say about your mare I have found with my guy. He is often calm in some situations, but can be spooky. sometimes I see it coming, and we deal with it mainly by gentle persistence. Occasionally totally without warning, and I know he didn't plan it. He did a sidestep often when I tried a mounting block. It depends why he's doing it, and sometimes how the rider interprets it. At first I thought he was just being resistant, made sure saddle and girth was as good as I could get it. I finally figured out that he just didn't feel safe about me on the mounting block. so I mounted from the ground. Now that has to be more uncomfortable for him, and a stretch for me, but he didn't step away from me, and did for a time take a step or two formward as I got on, so I just prepared for it. But now he stands almost still, and has been completely still a few times lately. So progress.
A couple of times when he seemed to not be cooperative, I actually found out the equipment wasn't right. So he wasn't being fussy, he just likes everything safe, I think because he doesn't want me hurt.
Then there were the unscheduled dismounts due to him spooking without warning.I absolutely had the feeling he didnt do it deliberately. Once he actually looked really sorry it had happened. When they happened I was not nervous at the moment so that wasn't causing it. In fact I was kind of asleep at the switch. So not only do I need to pay attention for my own safety, but I think he spooked bigger because I wasn't "guiding" him through a spot that he thought was tricky. Since taking that approach we haven't had an unscheduled dismount, but he has spooked, but responds to my control even when he's pretty shaken up. Your horse's reasons may be quite different, but my point is we sometimes have to just look really carefully at what they are trying to tell us, and figure a way to deal with it in a way that supports them. Listen to your horse with an open heart. You may not hit on the solution immediately but you will see some little improvements when you are on the right track.
To help with balance, certainly sitting on them , or just go at a slow walk is good. But I also did "dry land" exercises to get my core and back stronger. One of the best exercises is learn how "Tai chi" teaches people to walk differently, more grounded and balanced. Also knee bends, but again you can do them wrongly or in a way that builds core body and back strength. Tai chi also has a "sitting on horse" stance, again study carefully how it is different that just a regular bent knee stance.
There were times when it seemed he didn't want me on him, but I used the kindest saddle and bridle I could and just took it slow. If I didn't manage to stay on, I just got back up. You absolutely can't get on a horse that won't allow it, so if you are up there, she allowed it. Okay someitmes you get up there and they decide maybe they aren't so keen. If they are really making it difficult, that's okay to get off if you feel you have to, but see if they will let you try again. I didn't have the sense that Sharif was trying to get rid of me, just that he had reached his limit of tolerance for the sensation of saddle + me. Eventually we got past that, but it was a gradual process. Just lots of repetitions, now he saddles better and we just keep working on each issue. It feels more like breaking in a youngster than an 11 year old. But I just keep asking, and pushing the envelope and he gradually adjusts.
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Marlene, it sounds like Sharif does the same thing as Fanny.
The big horse ball incident totally caught me off guard - I must've been asleep at the wheel. That one hurt, because I skinned my fingers on the reins, and I landed on my elbow and hip. For a while I just stood there with my hands on my knees. I looked up at Fanny, and she came walking right over to me. She's done that before when I've fallen off. I usually get back on her after an unscheduled dismount, and she's okay with it.
I fuss over her tack too, making sure it's all good and comfy.
I get a sense that when I am up on a mounting block she is nervous simply because of the fact that I am up higher than her, in a predatory position, ready to "pounce" on her. So I am working on getting on higher ground beside her whenever I can, and not get on. I just rub her back and then leave her alone. I don't want her to think that every time I'm up higher than her that I will automatically get on her. We'll see how this theory goes :o) -
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I enjoyed your story..... I sometimes wonder if a mounting block is a block.... that inadvertently pushes them over...... whereas when you are on the ground you can invite him in more.... just a thought... I haven't even gotten up on a horse in a long time but I notice the body language of people walking over, putting down the mounting block... seems like that energy would swing the horse over him thinking that is what you want... remember they are telepathic... are we saying, oh I hope he doesn't move, making him move, or stand still buddy come over here so I can get on..... I sure hope I can get on Oliver and not have a dismount cuz I'm old and don't want to... LOL...
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Here's a pic of Fanny and I, taken within the past month.
[IMG]http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab151/cyndidyck/Picture150.jpg[/IMG]
Don't know why photobucket wouldn't post it as an image, since that's what I chose it as. I'm not very good with computers when it comes to that kind of stuff :o)
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Oh you guys look great together!!
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Permalink Reply by Megan Hammock on
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Seconding Jennifer!! :)
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I loved that video that Ellen put up of herself and her horse catching her and standing still.... it's like she made it a game and the horse loved it... that horses personality is alot like Olivers........ he eats it up.... toby not so much.. he's more like, sister, I don't need all this attention, leave me alone.. little by little he's coming out of his shell...
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Reading that was like watching a really, really good movie! That is so cool! I thought about checking out that GaWaNi fellow.. Pretty good stuff?
Good gosh, you're probably getting sick of hearing from me by now (thaaaaank youuuuu) but, I'm doing my best not to be afraid around my girls.. I still get a bit of nervousness since they're just so darned BIG though, and I don't want to get bitten when D feels too nervous, or get trampled when they get startled! Could sensing that hinder their trusting-in-me development? Any pointers?
Good gosh, it can be so frustrating hearing and reading all the stuff people say is and isn't right about horses and living with them, isn't it?? What ISN'T disrespect if these people are right?! :P haha
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Ponyboy is cool... and kinda low energy..... he explains something interesting that I got alot out of, being alone here with my horses and having no agenda..... he said that when the Indians were getting their horses ready to be war ponies that they went to work every day like this... they said goodbye to the woman and went outside to spend time with their horses..... each day they played games, of confidence, and trust, and before they knew it their horses would do anything for them..... even lead them into battle bareback with a rope around their neck... The American soldiers were heard to say that they couldn't get their horses to do that kind of stuff..... the horses that were heavily laden with "tack" and had only known the soldiers maybe a few days or weeks before they carted the stupid American around on his back into battle... reminded me of Spirit, the cartoon where the cute indian guy tries to make friends with the horse by spending time trying things over and over till Spirit would do anything for that kid..... I really believe that horses want to be our friends.. they are herd animals and like to not be alone.. why wouldn't they do anything for us if they trusted us.....????? My friends think I'm an idiot for adopting a wild horse when I know nothing of horses... Ponboy gave me the confidence that time was on my side, my horse wants a relationship and that spending time with him will benefit me in the end... Oliver is 5... I figure by the time he's 7 or 8 our relationship will be so meaningful that they will eat crow.... not good to have revenge as my motivation, I've just gone back to worrying about me and O and that his devotion to me will be evident when we ride around town like it was evident to the Soldiers that wondered what the Indians had done to make such willing ponies.... they spent time with them... :) i actually put the book down and went outside and spent time with O and T and now it's time to move on to another Chapter and see what he has to say... but Ponyboy says that the horse is the teacher... which I believe.... they know much more about how to be a horse than I do... :) Your horses will help you not to be afraid the more time you give yourself to learn about them... My trainer stormed off one day and said You don't trust him and he knows it...... and that lead me to my year long journey of trusting my horse... think about it... as your beast of burden, don't you think the girls want you to know that you can trust them? you are so on to an amazing journey here Megan...... I trust my horse now more than the people that were trying to keep me from him.... I just didn't understand him..... I think he is really a good boy that didn't want to be misunderstood... needed a chance. :) I also have a Foster Child theory... horses get moved from place to place.... but when they know they can "be" somewhere permanently and that you won't give up on them, then woohoo, the relationship can start... people give up on their horses when they might not understand them.
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