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The Thoroughbred horse off the track
Good or bad for breeding riding horses (Quarter horses, jumpers, dressage horses, etc.)?
I have come here to find out as much as I can on this subject.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Elles Prins on
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People who are seriously into dressage think that horses with a tendency to amble are a complete nightmare ;-). Because it could mess up the walk and one could loose points because of that. However it is a nice gait for the rider. I have never worked with a pureblood Arabian. I have seen quite a lot of them though. The Cossack stud here in the Netherlands years ago used to import a lot of Arabian horses from Russia and these would be sold in sales. Once I went to one of these sales. There were some beautiful horses in the sale and some went for incredible sums of money..
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Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on
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NONE of the old dressage masters wanted amblers for the manege work.
I got to ride a full Russian blood Arabian gelding for 18 months. Best horse I've ever ridden, though he had some problems caused by previous bad riding. I felt the signs of gaiting but I never introduced it because he was good enough to go into dressage and gaiting would probably have interfered with the purity of the walk, trot and canter.
At the time of *Raseyn regular Americans did not do dressage. If a regular American horseman wanted to do fine riding they either went Saddle Seat if they rode English or the old Californio bosal and spade bit system if they rode Western. Saddle Seat descended from English riding from the time when most of the riding horses in England were amblers. Saddle Seat people of the ASB breed most revere the 5-gaited horse as the pinacle of riding, and the Saddle Seat is also used for riding the gaited Tennessee Walking Horse. No classical dressage was involved in the development of the American Saddle Seat school of riding.
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Permalink Reply by vickie lawson on
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hi elles: i haven't had much luck uploading videos. our mare has lots of old tb blood, biscay and milling etc. she has developed cushings, i think because the person i leased her to for a year starved her. we got her back but she soon developed cushings. she is happy though and alert at 22 yrs.
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I think there usedto be and still is quite some variation in conformation within the Arabian breed.
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Carl Raswan divided the desert bred Arabian horse into three main types, the ultra pure Kuheilan and Saqlawi and the somewhat suspect (possible Turkoman outcrosses) Muniqi strains. His theories, developed after living with the Bedouin in the desert, were extremely controversial in the English and American breeding communities.
The Kuheilan was the ideal cavalry type, somewhat similar to a Morgan, but with the wonderful mitbah (neck and jowl joint), wide space betweed the jowls, pyramidical shaped head that looks like it is sculptured out of granite, as well as an arched neck and highly carried tail. The croup is not "flat", the outlines are rounded.
The Saqlawi was more like an American Saddlebred, higher, longer arched necks, finer, more drawn out lines. The head still has the pyramid shape but can be somewhat longer than the Kuheilan type. The horse's back is somewhat longer, not quite as deep through the girth, somewhat flatter croup, same high tail, and the horse looks finer than the Kuheilan.
The Muniqi, with the possible Turkoman outcrosses, look a lot like a TB. Same long neck, not very arched, much plainer long head, excellent long shoulders, higher withers, longer backs, sloping croups, and longer legs. Definitely the ugly one in the bunch but still shows blood. Both the Darley Arabian and the Godolphin Arabian are thought to be of the Muniqi or closely related Jilfan strain.
Europeans and Americans are trying to breed an "ideal" Arabian that has the good points of each of these types. This is unfortunate, the reason that the Arabian has been such a good outcross for hot blood is because the Saddlebred type people can find an Arabian like their mares, and a TB breeder can find one that is like his mares, and the people breeding blockier horses can find an Arabian stallion that fits his mares. Even the French Percheron breeders found Arabian blood that fit their mares.
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I had heard about the different types of Arabians but did not know so much about them. Thank you for the information!
All kinds of horse have been refined by Arabians, like the Haflinger, the Lippizaner, the Percheron (like you said).
Do you know of any thorougbreds or thoroughbred lines that resemble (skeleton wise) the Arabian but still have enough hight?
I do not know so much about the difference in temperament and character between the Arabian and the TB. I have known some partbred Arabian horses and those did not really seem more quit and easier then TB's or TB crosses are in general.
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There is a defining structure in the Arab pelvis which does not seem to occur in TBs. Gladys Brown Edwards, an Arab expert of the 60's & 70's called it the Arabian Triangle. In most horses the line from the hip bone to the point of the buttock parallels the top line of the croup. In Arabs, the croup top line usually does not parallel this line, and the base of the tail is higher than with other breeds. This happens even with Arabs with sloping croups, and whether to top line of the croup is flat (horizontal) or not. Part Arabs can also show this Arabian Triangle.
As far as I know no other breed has this skeletal trait, including the Barbs and Turkomans. It may be the reason why the Arabs, while fast, are not super fast, and why the Arabs, so well balanced and bouncy, tend not to do classical dressage well, and why Arabs usually are not considered good jumpers even though some of them have amazing leaps for their size.
Among the TB's I'd look into the greys (I think the grey color may come from Arabians, and all grey TBs are descended from the Alcock Arabian), and the chestnuts of the Darly Arabian sire line. SOME of them can come up with amazing similarities to Arabian type while still keeping the TB heighth and athletic ability. However if the TB shows this Arabian triangle he probably does not have the athletic ability of normally conformed TBs.
Arabs have their own amazing athletic abilities, but they insist on moving the way they are built to move, which is not the way wanted for winning in international jumping, 3 Day and dressage competitions.
The one Arab characteristic I would look for in a non-Arab horse is the very mobile junction between the neck and jaw (mitbah in Arab terms) with good width between the jowls. This can give a slightly better rein if the rider has good hands, and the horse may have more sensitivity that a normal horse of the breed.
Come to think of it I think Hypericon and The Tetrarch were both considered very Arab like. Both greys if I am remembering correctly.
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Sorry,I was wrong on the TB's. Hyper--I got the spelling wrong & he is a chestnut. The previous picture of The Tetrarch I saw was in maturity, the picture in the allbreedpedigreequery was in racing fitness in his youth, and he looks ALL TB.
If I ever find my notebooks with GBE's articles I'll try and find what she said. Now, where can they be? I KNOW I re-read them over 20 years ago. Hmmm.
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I looked up Hypericon and could not find him ;-).
I would love to hear more about TB's with the best riding horse qualities to be found in the world today.
I am always on the look out for such horses.
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Hypericon was my memory glitch. Not a TB horse.
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I was looking up grey TBs on the web and I ran into this horse--Timeless Event, gr TB Stallion, 16.2, (http://www.stallionsnow.com/stallion-ad-239679). His conformation looks quite Turkoman, but his trot and movement sometimes look Arab in the little video they have of him.
Is this the type of grey TB you are looking for? Some of the other grey ones looked conformed like QHs.
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Yes, Timeless event looks like a nice type of TB in my eyes. Het seems to have nice movement and good bloodlines and he is not so much the QH type of horse. It seems as if he is a bit short in the neck but things are always hard to tell from a picture ofcourse.
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