Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by thecrazydolls on February 11, 2009 at 6:07pm

Teddy, do you consider the rather disturbing changes in paces displayed by horses regularly schooled using hyperflexion? What makes it so very wrong for me is the fact that anyone interested in dressage, who buys the books, the magazines, googles photos or articles on it is shown photo's of horses competing at the top level showing absolutely no trace of true collection, often behind the vertical and with hindquarters unengaged and hinds legs out behind like a young unbalanced horse who hasn't properly learnt to use himself. They show such wonderful, elevated, expressive foreleg movement, yes, but where are the hindquarters? They do not sit in piaffe, let alone passage, and those photos that are a pathetic excuse for showing collection in these movements and barely so. There is often also excessive use of the reins and especially the curb. Of course, I am aware that the curb can be loosened or tightened to affect it's level of action, as such, but for me that makes no excuse for them to still use it so much. What for do they need it so badly anyway? These horses should be able to do all the high school movements in a simple snaffle, and yet always there is great use of the curb bit. No wonder these horses are unable to bring their hind legs through.

Also, being Grand Prix horses, should they be very active behind. Are they not supposed to train the horse to push through from the hindquarters-train "back to front"? If you do not train the horse to be forward, to use the hindquarters, then he will never be able to truly collect-and very few of the top competing dressage horses these days do.

What also worries me is that for many young riders Anky, Isabell and the likes are idols. What they do, many will try to emulate, regardless of what the FEI says. I know someone who "experiments" with hyperflexion in his own time, without actually understanding how to do it, when to give or take or knowing how much a horse can handle. This is what I find to be dangerous. The average riding career of a horse in Europe lasts only 5 1/2 years. Do you wonder why this might be? It is widely used there, often with many "tools" (draw reins etc) and with such strongly hand dominated riding, so much leg is needed, often backed up by artificial aids. I've bore witness to this myself, and it certainly was not a pretty thing and concerning to think many young, inexperienced horse enthusiasts (and some not so) will try this because of what it does for the "worlds best" dressage riders.

They are not the "worlds best" dressage riders, the are the world best show dressage riders, the best at putting on a facade, and for me the kind of dressage they display is barely dressage at all. They may perform the movements, yes, but lacking everything that dressage is supposed to be about-harmony, grace, power. For there is no beauty in an animal robbed of using it's own body effectively to do things on command that it naturally finds difficult anyway.

And of course hyperflexion is but part of their "training system", it is not the system itself, but it is hyperflexion-or that part of their "system"-that people have a problem with.

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Permalink Reply by Teddy Rekai-Nuttall on February 12, 2009 at 6:51pm

Hello,
I am approaching this from the science side, my research is to fill a gap in the knowledge base, so this is purely training theory discussion for me. I am also a showjumper, so it is not as relevant for me. JUst wanted to put that out there so people don't think I am staunchly pro-rollkur/ LDR/ Hyperflexion, nor am I staunchly against, I merely want to be part of the research process. All I have presented is the scientific research that exists to support it, without which we are discussing hearsay. I am just playing the devil's advocate here. I completely agree that it is not to be used by a beginner, nor inexperienced hands, as I stated before. From a rider's perspective I have seen just as many anti-rollkur enthusiasts reeling their horses in with draw reins and gadgets to get them on the vertical.
This is a conversation I have daily in my degree, that of modern competition versus classical equitation, and that is the choice we have to make as riders. THe choice is between what is currently popular, and what used to be popular, whether it is the correct way or not. By keeping the discussion going, that is how you can gain support for either the current acceptability or a shift to classical training.
You mentioned excessive use of the curb, does this not constitute a higher degree of difficulty for the movement, and thus increase the scores? Which is the name of the game in modern dressage, I'm afraid. As a showjumping rider I ride with an independent hand, which has very little contact, so I feel as though I am speaking from the opposite end of the spectrum and I feel that I can be unbiased in this function. I train with a dressage basis, but never to restrict from the front, always coming from behind, and I do feel that you can get LDR and hyperflexion by willing submission to the aids, and without gadgets. I would not, however, suggest that anyone experiment, start with the classical, and then when you're training with Anky, she can tell you to do it.
Let's keep this ball rolling, great discussion

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Permalink Reply by Bernd on February 15, 2009 at 12:01pm

Hi Teddy,

when yo talk about science I presume you mean verterinary discipline? If so, you should read Dr. Heuschmann's book and look at his film. However from a scientific point of view the book will be more precise. Its actually not so easy to find an experiemental design to deliver conculsive results.
For example measuring the horse's pulse in any give position will show variations depending on the horses constituion, its fitness as well as an effect of the head position.

The LDR method described in the article about Frank Hoyos describes very much the undisputed way of preparing the horse. Also the flexibility he mentions in the article is very much commonly agreed in dressage.

The Rollkur dispute referres to the forces and very tight head positions that the riders use to excercise control. The negative effects that I described earlier in this discussion make this a dangerous way to go. However some world class riders take this way and can do it without too much problems.

The curb bit is actually a means to achieve easier and softer control for the rider. ideally the horse should balance itself, offering a steady but soft connection to the riders hand. The rider should have his/hers hands and steady as possible. The curb bit will do this better than the snaffle because its mechanic will treat both sides equally. With a correct chain the curb bit can belifted by the riders hand up to 45degree without force, signalling the horse a point of contact that is should respect. The additional potential power of the hand via the curb should be only a reserve that both horse and rider know and don't use normally.

Unfortunately in modern dressage people push the horses to the limit exploiting all reserves.

Reading Sjif Jansens interview he describes pretty much the method of Francois Baucher around 1850. (what he called his première manière). He used to school thoroughbred horses for the circus. He changed his method later in his life.

That later method he considered superior and it is decribed today very well be Jean-Claude Racinet. A very influential trainer in Europe today is Philippe Karl. They would today critize the Rollkur very sharply.

One main issue in this discussion is the actual scoring at the dressage tests. You can't blame the riders for their wish to win. As long as judges give high scores for very expressive movements, that is what the riders will make their horses do. So if Rollkur gives the rider a tool to squeeze more experssive movements out of his horses he will do so and win. If judges rewarded a more relaxed style with softer contact to the bit, that's what we would see.

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Permalink Reply by Teddy Rekai-Nuttall on February 15, 2009 at 2:22pm

Hi Bernd,
I have the book, and have read through it. It is an excellent body of work, but I do think that there is more room in the knowledge base to investigate. This is not to diminish the work in any fashion, but to merely suggest that like any science, there are never finite conclusions. When I refer to the science i do in fact mean the ongoing Physiological (Cardio-respiratory, Musculoskeletal, plasma-Biochemical, etc.) research to establish quantifiable effects of hyperflexion. I can certainly agree with you on the difficulty of experimental design, it is an ongoing battle for me.
I think we are both for the same argument, that we are against forced maintained hyperflexion (rollkur), and that should never be used by any hands. In reading the transcripts from the FEI veterinary council on Rollkur, there did seem to be an implication that Mr Jansen's LDR was in fact as harsh as this, which I think is where many do get the terms intertwined.

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Permalink Reply by Bernd on February 17, 2009 at 7:57am

Hi,

I think one of the difficluties you'll meet in research is the dispute about short term and long term effects.
A horse, used to the method will not be very exited unless the rider forces it, hence the immediate reactions will be pretty normal and once you release the reins the effect is over.
Long term the situation may be different, but long term effects are harder to isolate the reasons.

Its very hard to isolate Rollkur as a determining factor as we see in the sport only those horses which have survived the training in good shape.
In case Hyperflexion was damaging for the horse, it would not appear in international sports. So its of limited value to test the "survivers" unless you have an idea about the number of "drop outs".

An experimental design taking a random selection of comparable horses and train one group traditionally and another with Rollkur will be very expensive. It will raise concerns about the damaging effects for the horses involved. It will be difficult to control the effect of the riders as their quality will influence results, too.

It would however make the headline news in horse magazines around the world.:-))

I wouldn't say its impossible though.
There is one such experiment in Germany. One of the state-owned studs is running a test with 2 groups of novice horses for 1 year. One group is trained traditionally, the other is trained by a special method from a well known, but controversial trainer over here. All horses are kept in the same stud facilities and trained by professionals under instruction from the training supervisors. The agricultural university of Nürtingen is supervising it from a scientific point of view.
After one year, the horses will be brought to one of the regular auctions held by the stud and we'll see which group of horses is sold for the better prices. (its in March this year)
So here we have at least a measurable criteria that all horse people will understand.

However, doing that with Rollkur will need a very very careful design, supported by high reputation scientists and riders.- hm, and the money! -

Still, the PR hype would make the Olympics look small.

best regards
Bernd

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Permalink Reply by Teddy Rekai-Nuttall on February 17, 2009 at 9:51am

That is very interesting Bernd, I will have to keep attention on that one. I looked in detail at Mr. Karl's website, very interesting, and lends support to the American jumping style. I very much enjoyed the style in which he presents his school of legerete.

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Permalink Reply by Bernd on February 18, 2009 at 7:39am

Hi,
I'll visit the auction at march 7th and see first hand how the experiment with the different style trained horses came out. Here is a lot of publication in German about this. I don't know how its recognized internationally. - I'll tell you about the results.
Of course it has nothing to do with Rollkur, but the fact that an experimental design has been setup is interesting. May be it can set an example. Many reseacrh questions need such designs.

Best regards
Benrd

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Permalink Reply by Brenda Gordon on February 24, 2009 at 2:53pm

the best book on the subject is called Tug of War.
google for it.
My instructor thinks it stinks, it is often the method used to RUSH a young horse into the collected pose the only truly comes from proper ground work, exercise, proper riding posture/horse and rider and muscle development.
It is a pulled in "forced" head /neck postion that the vet author of the book tells can cause terrible damage to the horse.
hope you get to read more.

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Permalink Reply by Charlie on February 28, 2009 at 12:44am

Sorry for being a little late to jump in on this but...

"- Some horses will develop a change of their neck shape (in german its called "falscher Knick"). I don't know the English expression, but once done, the horses career in dressage is over as it will usually get scores below 50%"

'falscher Knick' I think literally means "Wrong Bend".

I'm one of Shimmer E's students that was asking about Rollkur. I'd like to thank everyone who's helped explain this for us. It really helps and now I can understand why someone may want to use it. It's nice to have both sides shown as well.

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Permalink Reply by Brenda Gordon on February 28, 2009 at 9:03am

Hello Charlie,
I was interested in the shape you referred to as falscher Knick, do you have any photo you could upload? I would like to see this,
I am also pleased to hear that after recognizing this "wrong bend" it is NOT acceptable by judges.

Have you seen the book "Tug of War" ? It is really important reading, the information should be shared by everyone in the horse world, for the better health of horses.
-hope to hear more from everyone on this

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Permalink Reply by Charlie on February 28, 2009 at 5:21pm

Oh I wasn't the one who was talking about it. I just knew what it meant.

From what I can gather though...
This is incorrect or 'falscher Knick' where the horse gets a kink in it's neck from trying to avoid aids. It is normally accompanied by the horse holding it's nose 'behind the vertical'.

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Permalink Reply by Bernd on March 1, 2009 at 1:42pm

Hi,

I've looked up the translation of "falscher Knick" and it describes a kink in the horses neck at the 3rd cervical. The expression "falscher Knick" is used in Germany as a special phrase. I couldn't find an english translation.

The problem with this is that once the horse has developed it, it is very difficult to re-train it, if at all possible.
Riding a horse that way in dressage will usually get you score below 50%.

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