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Can You Critique This Picture?
I was wondering if I could get any advice on my jumping position from the looks of this picture.
Any advice would be awesome, Just be nice about it, please.
And, I know about my heels.... =( I'm working on it.
Thanks!!!
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by EvaZ on
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Jocelyn,
There is a school of jumping thoughts how rider should sit detailing it to the point of paralysis, where - if everything done as they say it should be done - you will float out of the saddle with the first small misstep of the horse. In other words, one could not sit like this on a chair nailed to the floor.
I can tell you this. What the horse is doing is not really a jump. It is a canter cavaleti, and the horse is only slightly above a regular galloping stride. So, your position, strictly speaking, should not be much different from the gallop.
What you do is this:
http://s3.hubimg.com/u/2165302_f496.jpg
what practical people do is this:
http://wholehorsejourneys.com/images/whj-cdh-count-gallop-4web.jpg
Why I call it practical? Because a horse do not always move the way they should. They stop, they jump aside, they buck, they speed up, they slow down. Without asking you first. If that happens, your back better be not in lordosis. Your eye should anticipate such moves and give your brain a fast direction - don't look down, but don't stare at the horizon either. Your should be able to get to the safe seat on a brink of a second. Safe seat in jumping is something William Steinkraus talked about a lot, and has a wonderful book on it. You cannot get into a safe seat fast enough, if you are getting used to jumping with lordosis in your spine. In fact, you might hurt your spine seriously, if a horse one day decides to jump something with a catapult - like style. It happens...
The problem is ... you probably train for a barbie-style jumping, and what I am saying therefore does not apply :-(
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Permalink Reply by Jocelyn on
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Sorry, but if you're suggesting that I'm a girly-girl/"barbie" type rider, I can tell you that I'm not.
I haven't had lots of time training over jumps, and I was just asking what else to remember and what to do to improve my position, even if the jump wasn't high.
I hope that I misinterpretted what you were trying to say, but a complete shut-down of how I ride/jump, wasn't what I was looking for when I started this discussion.
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No, I did not mean to disrespectful. I am trying to be realistic. I call it barbie jumping in general, there is no personal attack hidden in it. It is just merely reflecting the industry standard and its practices, and the fact, that if you are having a trainer from this school, there is nothing much you can do about it. And there is no point correcting it. Because by that standard, everything you do on that picture is nearly perfect :-) Cheers!
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Ok, Got it.
Had a day, and was on edge, and I've always hoped I don't come across as a barbie type person.
And thank-you for clarifying, I hate blowing-up, but yesterday was just one of those days.
Thanks.
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I was actually trying to help you. Because if you try ever to go higher and become more dynamic, you should learn better habits right now. And it will not happen if you do not realize what school of jumping thoughts you are currently in. I tried to point the difference, and said some useful information along with it.
If you find this so offensive, I am sorry. But perhaps you should not be so dismissive of that information about different styles, and why they are actually practiced. It does broaden the equestrian education a little bit.
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And here, perhaps some other people find it useful:
From the page of American Medical Equestrian Association: http://asci.uvm.edu/equine/law/amea/feb97nws.htm#bottom
I cite:
"The Riding Position
With a general purpose saddle the thigh is usually at 30-40 degrees from the horizontal, causing flattening of the lumbar lordosis. This leads to increased lower vertebral and disk loading with the risk of subsequent damage. A longer stirrup length with the thigh at 45 degrees from the horizontal maintains the natural lumbar lordosis (with consequent reduction of lumbar strain) and also reduces backward rotation of the pelvis. "
It mentions lordosis. Lordosis can be induced by the saddle and the stirrups, but also it is propagated by the barbie-style industry standard. They teach this to very young kids, who retain this habit forever, even when they become GP riders.
It has a great potential to cause injury of the back, and I have not made it up. No need to be angry.
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So... Your suggestion would be to be concious of what my back is doing?
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Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on
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Hey Jocelyn, I think I know what EvaZ is trying to point out. This is a problem I had for a LONG time, and I tell how I finally fixed it in my blog http://barnmice.com/profiles/blogs/fixing-my-shoulders and I give details on how to do it.
Ever since I tried this method my riding teacher has yelled about my shoulders and back a LOT less, around 99% less. Not only has it fixed my shoulders and back in the saddle, it has helped my aching back a lot when I am out of the saddle. When I do this technique in a vertical seat it feels like my spine is "stacking up" correctly, when I do it in two-point it opens up my chest and frees my shoulder joints making my "seat" a lot more fluid.
You're doing fine. It takes a lot of jumping to get it all together. There are so many things to think about during that one second of the jump!
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Jackie, I think the best natural exercise for this is to simply gallop. Get outside, go on slightly uneven terrain, and gallop your horse freely. It is good for the mind and the body. The body will find the best position on its own. It will be similar to that black and white picture above. If the horse gallops slightly downhill, one can quickly find out, why the back needs to be slightly rounded. The force coming from the ground directly to our hips will not overcome our vertebrates, our back muscles will have a chance to react, and will not allow over-rotation.
Once a rider finds comfort in the light, galloping seat, everything changes even on the jumps. Perhaps we are trying to force jumping seats on people artificially. Besides, every jumping horse benefits from gallops. Nice, wide, fast and regular, powerful gallops. That is the alpha and omega of an athletic horse.
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Used to do this during those wonderful years before the MS got too bad. Right now I am stuck in the ring, getting my seat/body/position the most secure I can. Even if I got out of the ring the land at the stables I ride is FLAT.
The reason I am working so hard on my position and my security is that I want to have a chance whenever I get to ride out of the ring again, a chance to keep my seat during shies, and a chance to stay on during unexpected jumps. I am a lot closer than I was 3 years ago, it just takes a very, very, very long time to get better physically better with my MS. If I work too hard, go too fast, or get too ambitious I can quickly get myself into an attack of my MS which decisively stops all of my ambitions, it has happened before several times, including many times before I knew I had MS. Sometimes it has taken me years to get over an attack caused by me being too ambitious.
But for those who can get out of the ring and gallop, yes, this is a wonderful way to get into synch with your horse. A good, free gallop, stretching out and breathing deeply--yes, horses just love this! It builds the wind, strengthens the heart, increases agility, and gives the rider a chance to train the horse at speed. This seems to be much neglected nowadays, I just wish I could do it myself!
I think that we will have to agree to disagree about the rounding of the back going downhill. I remember a few occasions, going downhill, that if my back had been rounded I would have come right off when my horse stumbled. I'm going to stick with Caprilli and Littauer on this one. My sense of balance is just too bad.
I just wish that cantering did not exhaust me so quickly.
Thanks for the suggestions.
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When you gallop downhill, you should place yourself in the position William Steinkraus called a "safe seat". It is hard to describe it, but it is the same position, jumpers have if they anticipate either a stop, or very bad take-off. It is still forward, but your butt is closer to a cantel. Your body is somewhat lowered. That makes the body slightly curved.
Now, to illustrate the point further, lets look at an extreme.
http://www.thewallpapers.org/wallpapers/19/1954/thumb/320_Mountain_...
I hope nobody here would suggest to that cyclist, that he should straighten his back, or even be in lordosis? The physics is very - very similar, but the bicyclists are not plugged with theories how they should sit, they do what feels right.
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I don't know about the various "safety seats" I've heard of. One I decided I could not ride because it was TOO DANGEROUS for me with my lack of forward/back balance. I'll check Steinkraus's out soon, if it is in "Riding and Jumping.". I ride FS, not the USET seat influenced by deNemethy.
From Jane Marshall Dillon's "Form Over Fences", p. 22.
"Rounded back. This is a most common fault. Frequently it is coupled with the rider looking down, with pivoting on the knees, and the lower leg swinging back. The opposite dilemna in which the rider may find himself, in relation to the back, is a general stiffness."
By the way she is not saying to sway the back, she praises the backs that look flat--not rounded, nor lordosis (sway back), and I do not mean horizontal all the time, just the spine is straight. This is on the flat, over jumps, at all gaits, up hill and down hill. As I said, we will have to agree to disagree. Respectfully, I am not going to stop promoting proper jumping ala FS no matter how much fashions have changed the last 50-60 years. After all, it IS the basis of all modern jumping.
Jocelyn, I do not mean to highjack your discussion! I apologize. Ask as many experienced horsepeople as you can, but I warn you, you MAY get twice as many different answers as there are horsepeople--this is just the way we are.
The MOST important being you have to worry about pleasing while jumping is the horse you are riding. You have made an excellent start, and you want to get better. Good for you!
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