Join up... is it really a good way of training horses?

I just read the first reply to the thread:
http://www.barnmice.com/forum/topics/have-you-ever-had-or-dealt

and it said ...."If you don't know what join-up is... It is basically taking your horse into a round pen and chasing them away from you with a rope... Make sure
they are always at a run and change directions every 10 minutes or
so.... You will know your horse is ready to listen when they show on of
three signs of submission.... 1. Suddenly stopping and facing you 2.
Chewing 3. One ear is always pointed toward you... When your horse shows
you one of these signs, turn your back to them... They should walk-up
to you and either nudge you on the back or put there head over your
shoulder... At this point you need to give them a treat and a little
rest... Then walk away... They should follow...If they don't you need to
run them some more...
It is important to have lots of time to do this, you should not be rushing it... If it has been a long time and your horses is exhausted
and sweat, but still hasn't given in .... Give them a rest and try again
later in the day or the next day...
Also, if you don't have a round pen available to you... you can use a riding arena... You just need to take some boards or sheets of wood and
block off the corners, so that your horse cannot corner himself and make
it hard for you to chase him/her...
Hope this helps!!! If you need more information you can just google it or watch a video of it on youtube....

****** One important thing to know!!! YOU SHOULD NEVER HIT YOUR HORSE DURING THIS EXERCISE!! IT IS A NONE VIOLENT METHOD OF TRAINING, AND YOU
WILL LOSE YOUR HORSES RESPECT IF YOU HIT THEM!!"

I am not trying to be mean to the person that wrote this, I am just using her description for what join-up is, simply because I think that this is the way most people do it.

My question to you all is; do you think this is a good thing to do with horses? If so, why? if not, why?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Megan Hammock on November 24, 2010 at 11:35am

That is so cool! That'd be so fun to talk to her about that.. I'm new with all of it so probably suck at it. Haha:) They both definitely have sweet faces.. Yeah, you can definitely tell Oliver isn't feeling well there, poor guy! Doesn't look like a personality thing (obviously, since you said so. haha:) )
Toby does look like a shy boy (his nostrils and overall expression make me think so) but he's definitely not uninterrested (say his upper lip)! I'll bet he's such a good boy:) Looks like maybe he can get fiesty sometimes (probably not often) perhaps? Unless his little swirl is more centered than it looks in the picture...

Forgive me for playing.. That stuff is soooo interesting:) Poor Oliver just doesn't look like he felt well there! I hope he feels much better now:)

What is "TMJ"??

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on November 24, 2010 at 12:45pm

Meghan, well here you go telling me things I didn't even see.... and knowing things to be true... Toby is very feisty and slightly unpredictable and definitely a handful....

TMJ is a jaw problem..... his jaw unhinges I guess... I mean I have it too and that is what happens to me. Humans can get it from grinding their teeth when they sleep. I had to get a mouthguard, it is very debilitating and when I went to my doctor feeling crappy she took one look at me and said, you have tmj and it is manifesting in many ways... huh,.... ... Jackie looked at the picture of Oliver and she noticed so many things.... she also taught me about wrinkles over his eyes... so I called my friend Lydia who reads my horses for me.... she was so worried when she saw another photo of him that she asked me if she could come right over and see him..... when they were talking he explained to her that he had blinding black migraine headaches..... he told her that when he was in the womb, a horse kicked his mom and his face was knocked... right at his jaw.... and that ever since he was born he's had it.. but he also said that accidentally about the time this photo was taken when he and mr. feisty were goofing around that they got it out of place and it was really bothering him.... he was being exceptionally crabby and I was scared that he was becoming dangerous... so, Lydia came and she did a light treatment on him, much like accupressure..... and within about an hour he started relaxing and chewing and licking and his eyes were softening..... then she taught me how to do accupressure along his ear so that it would relieve him..... and she taught me all the signs of when he was in distress... like he will lick water more, extend his neck to see if he can get his jaw right and he will also open and close his mouth like he is trying to get his jaw in place.... I give him massages there too... I think it is so interesting too but I believe that people like Jackie and Linda and you now might have a gift to see things that other people like me don't see.... I had no idea of any of this until Jackie saw the photo.... I really appreciate the comments of people that see things and I really take it to heart.
Thank you for your comments.... Oliver has two whorls by the way... :) when I looked him up in the book it basically said that he is uncomplicated if I got it right... it's so technical.... maybe you could start a separate thread here about what you are learning.. it would be so fun....

This is Oliver, Lydia Hiby, who is an amazing woman, and Steve Boyles, Olivers trainer.... Lydia and I did alot of work with Oliver this day with training too and she taught me how he understands... it was a terrific day in a breakthrough with Oliver...

Permalink Reply by Shirley on November 23, 2010 at 11:24am

Cyndi, I see horses all the time that are just expected to be compliant & obedient and they often seem to have lost their personality/dead inside. It's just sooo sad. I do think that the Monty Roberts type of "join up" is likely to result in this obedient-dead inside personality.

Jen Lamm, I think I understand what you are doing with your two guys and It should have a different result then what Monty Roberts does by the same name.
The picture of Toby and Oliver is so cute. They do not look dead inside but very contented horses. Oliver looks pretty sleepy but I've seen all your photos and videos of him and know that he doesn't have this look all the time.

We have two show horses at our barn that don't even get excited when they are given treats. They take the treat but it seems to be a very ho-hum affair.

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on November 23, 2010 at 3:28pm

Hi Shirley.. thanks for you reply. I had another thought about this, because as you know the connection part with my horses is just so a w e s o m e...... I love it.... now when I join up with them I've taken it to asking them to follow me at my shoulder but I am learning their beats and where there feet are and they are learning trot and they are starting to trot side by side with me..... I notice how they go out of their way to not step on me or scare me. I feel even more bonded and joined with them because our feet are all moving at the same time and we are in sync and now we can go around more and more where just a few weeks ago we would go just a few steps.... .... anyway, what I was going to say was something I learned from my trainer who has done alot of work with many many trainers... this is the join up thing he taught me from Chris Cox... like he would come over, we'd have a lesson and he would leave me with this... I'm just saying this because maybe it will help others join up from the horses point of view....

groom your horse at liberty........ for just a bit...... then walk away..... what does he choose to do with you.... does he come over for more grooming, which is what horses in a herd would do..... or do they walk away and maybe go see another real horse or what have you, pick on the ground.... ..... Chris says when the horse stays with you at liberty, no matter what you are doing, or even if he's ground tied that really tells you what he thinks about you and he says a wonderful saying of you are not going to catch your horse, we are doing what we need to do until your horse catches you.... ..... I've spent time trying to see what my horses need from me for them to stay with me.... and this treat thing? I think I gave them treats just recently.. for years I never even fed them out of my hand, but I did these exercises of join up every day... .... but anyway, the connection which is the bond of trust is what joining up means to me.... whenever I'm with my horses in the pasture they are just right with me..... we hang out the three of us for hours and hours just being together... :) anyway, the signlas that Ellen has shown us has helped even more with them joining right up, and being interested in me...... like when they are doing a calming signal I acknowledge it now and sort of do the same thing back... they like that.... :) I practice talking to them every day...... until I get better at all the other stuff I have to be Doctress Doolittle or something... but they are trotting and having fun, wooohooo!! what are you and the Cashsters up to? Oh, I have another question for you.... remember when you put up that video that I watched????? I loved it..... I forget... was he on line or off? I know he would follow you off line anyway.... to me, that is AWESOME joining up..... that horse digs you for sure.

Permalink Reply by Shirley on November 24, 2010 at 1:59am

Glad to hear you and your guys are progressing so well and having lotsa fun in the process. Very cool. You have 'for sure' put in the time and effort trying to figure out what would help you and them. I think I totally get what you are doing with them that you call 'join-up' and it definitely is 'a' join-up and thank goodness NOT Monty's kind of join-up.

You and I are definitely soul mates when it comes to wanting our horses to have fun and want to be with us like we want to be with them.

In my video I had Cash on a line but most of the time wasn't really using it much. It turned cold here today. It was about 34 when I went to the barn this afternoon. Yesterday it was about 64- 30 degrees colder! When I got to the barn Cash came running from the pasture. I gave him some hay in his stall while I exercised a 24/7 stalled show horse. Then I took Cash into the indoor arena for some brushing (Man was he muddy from all the rain yesterday. He'd had a good mudd roll or two) and set up a bunch of stuff to play with and we played off line for about 1.5 hrs. He stayed right with me the whole time and was very good natured about it all. Bummed I didn't get it on film, it was one of our better play days.
We had a great time together.

The horse I exercised: She is three and just recently came to our barn. She is in her stall all the time except when her mum comes to groom or ride her. Once in a while she goes out in a little pasture for about 10 minutes while the fella that cleans stalls in the morning lets her get a little grass just outside the barn door. sometimes she gets stubborn about coming back in.....can't blaim her for that! She is very robotic and just walks around very slowly. There is no enthusiasm, and she is very hard to even get into a trot. I try to get her to loosen up a little and play and she just keeps going at her same slow walk. She is a beauty and ultra sweet but I'd love to see her be three a little bit. Right now she has on a light weight blanket, then a blanket liner and then a heavy winter blanket and on her head I think she has 2 slinky things and then a huge heavy weight hood. When I asked her mum if I could exercise her in the afternoon when I'm there, she said sure but that I had to keep all her blankets on. So I am making it work so she can get out of her stall a little but she's beautiful
It's 2:a.m. and I need to get up in about 6 hours so off I go.
Till later, Keep horsen around!

Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on November 18, 2010 at 1:19pm

I have this theory. I think that the horse communicates with his whole body. It is like a paragraph, a statement, with muscle tension/relaxation, posture, ears, eyes, mouth and every part of the body putting "words" in the paragraph. Some horses are VERY subtle in "showing" their statements, others are more eloquent and obvious. Every movement develops the message further.
What the horse is saying with each "word" has to be interpreted withing the rest of the "paragraph" as shown by the rest of the horse's body and how the horse moves.
This discussion is exciting. It just proves to me how forgiving our horses are toward out inadvertent errors. I did not really learn how to read the horses until my first horse told me one day "Boy, you sure are dumb" and it finally got through (but not consciously, that took longer.)

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on November 18, 2010 at 1:40pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMc4iZ-iGS8

Shirley, Jackie, Hi everyone...... a few months ago I purchased a video camera..... and also because my horse is elderly I wanted some video of him..... this video is me trying to interact with him.. he is a shy horse naturally..... you can see he loves to move off when he is stressed....

the reason why I put this up for you guys is just because Ellen is gone and we can just chat while she's away.. then when she comes back I hope I don't get too ripped apart... but in this video I am trying to get an inside turn..... which next he may follow.... :) this horse never wants to interact. I am the only one he has a relationship with and I try really hard to not stress him out but naturally he is a worryer and a thinker, I love him to death, his name is Toby, he's 29 and he'd been to many homes and had many people before he met me 6 years ago.... this is what we do as we learn more and more about dancing together....

:)

this to me is joining up......

Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on November 18, 2010 at 1:59pm

A suggestion.
I noticed that Toby was trotting like something was bothering him in his back most of the tape. His head was high, the corner of his mouth was higher than the hip bone, nose stuck out and the ears looked sour.
At one point he trotted with his head further down, the corner of his mouth even or below the level of his hip bone, his poll was lower, and he looked a lot more comfortable moving.

You could try to back off your pressure when his head gets higher and praise him for moving with his head a little lower with a soft voice.

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on November 18, 2010 at 2:41pm

sure thing!! thank you...... he has arthritis.... I think the last time he got his shoes he got an adjustment too.. I hope so..... :) he rides like that too that's why I don't ride him anymore.... he is basically an old man and doesn't feel good all the time I think you are right Jackie, thank you for that.... but you are so right in you observation.... I was trying to draw him in... and get him to bend in..... and lower his head.... and the time he did it you can hear me praising him but you can't see him.... :) I learned from Chris Irwin that when they raise the head they are releasing adrenaline so I try and back off when he does that. I might not have noticed it as much because he is generally a nervous high headed worrier horse from my observations..... but I love your analysis...

Permalink Reply by Shirley on November 18, 2010 at 1:47pm

Leave it to Jackie to put this so well. Takes a long time to figure out the WHOLE package. Well, we can't learn it all even in a lifetime. Another good reason I appreciate others tactfully sharing their theories, observations and opinions. Jackie is full of it!!!!!!!!!! Knowledge that is. LOL

Permalink Reply by Megan Hammock on November 18, 2010 at 2:44pm

Well stated.. Almost a bittersweet realization:)

I try to pay attention to EVERYTHING my girls are doing (with their language) and often get confused because of what I perceive as "conflicting messages".

I'm anxious now to see if I can successfully read with this in mind! I definitely think they think I'm dumb as a log.. And I AM! I'm just glad they're such forgiving creatures.. Haha:)

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on November 18, 2010 at 3:54pm

I think horses understand intention..... I'm sure your girls know that even if they think you are dumb as a stump your heart is in the right place... that is why they keep helping us learn.....