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Permalink Reply by Jan Jollymour on March 9, 2009 at 5:50pm

Hi, Barbara:

This is an idea which Klaus Balkenhol proposed a number of years ago. Interestingly, he works very well with Col. Carde, and I think was also part of the US symposium in the fall of 2008. I agree that in some ways it's a good idea, although, like you, I am unsure of the logistics or practicality.

I think that for the most part the effects of the "thirty minutes of forced work" are evident in the final performances, but that judges continue (despite their protests to the contrary) to avoid penalizing bad work. As a for-instance, as an ex-judge, and a current coach, it is unsupportable to me to give 75%+ to horses which do not/cannot halt, or who require huge and obvious pulling on the reins to effect "collection" after extensions, yet we continually see this result. Until judges stop rewarding horses with extremely short and tense necks, with tight and tense backs, and no reach with the hindlegs coaches and trainers will not be motivated to change their approaches. Putting a judge or judges on the warm-up ring may make judges more defensive, but one person's opinion will not sway the jury's, especially when there is safety in numbers (and I mean that literally and figuratively). We currently do have stewards on the warm-up rings, and we see very little visible effect. In fact, I know of an instance where the FEI steward had to be forced by a team coach to pull a horse/rider from a practice ring. If the stewards are unwilling to enforce the rules, what makes us think that judges on a warm-up ring will be any different?

I think that more of us, probably myself included, need to be more vocal in our reactions to bad training. In other words, we must be more prepared to stand up and be counted when the chips are down, if you'll forgive the cliches! We, as individual trainers, coaches and riders, have a responsibility to police our sport, and to make it uncomfortable for those who are guilty of malpractice. I think that in practicality, we all carry this responsibility, and to expect officials to shoulder the load alone is unfair and unreasonable.

We also have a responsibility to provide judges with something else to judge. Many of us who embrace more horse-friendly and intuitive approaches to training forgo competition, for various and often good reasons, but unless we're out there providing judges with good quality work to use instead of the negative work, we don't offer them alternatives. That doesn't compensate for the scores Steffen Peters received at the Olympics Ior perhaps I should say "didn't receive), but it's still part of the story.

Finally, I think we have to continue to support the media in their pursuit of brutal training. If we are doing our jobs as trainers and riders, there should be little of it to be seen and/or videotaped. We should not be concerned about being seen in public, because there should be little to see which is not reasonable or supportable. Klaus Balkenhol's videotapes of the training rings at Aachen in 2006 are very interesting from that perspective!

Thanks for the opportunity to air my thoughts,

Jan Jollymour

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Permalink Reply by Bernd on March 17, 2009 at 12:59pm

Hi Jan,
I'd love to see those videotapes from the Aachen 2006 training rings. Are they available somewhere?
Ciao
Bernd

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Permalink Reply by Geoffrey Pannell on March 9, 2009 at 10:47pm

Well said Jan , there are some good points you make. I don't think having judges in the warm up would make any difference, like you said we already have stewards there and quite frankly I think most people are not going to rock the boat unless they see out and out abuse. It's hard enough in this country to get judges for the ring let alone for the practice arena as well. Unfortunately, for all the enlightened trainers and riders there are still just as many bash merchants who, through ignorance ride their horses from front to back . Education is the way forward! Education of riders ,coaches. judges, stewards, and trainers. This web site is , I believe, helping an enormous amount in that education. You only have to look at the blogs each week to see that!! We have access to some amazing people through this medium , the training philosophy's one sees all emphasize sympathetic , progressive training. All we have to do is keep spreading the word, I know a lot of us have been doing this for many years and will continue . What we need is for more people to be prepared to speak up , and not turn a blind eye . Complain , better still , ask judges to justify their scores if you think you have been hard done by. To do this with out making the judges defensive is quite a trick though! Ask the judges to help you understand why they gave the marks would be a better way ? I'm just thinking on the run here. I think we must some how make judges more accountable . To get them to start each test looking for good points not negative ones! I feel in the lower grades there is to much emphasize on getting the horse in a frame and not enough on looking for a relaxed flowing test. How often have we seen a nice relaxed test get caned and the tight , tense horse rewarded because the horse is forced into a frame. I'd like to see those tense tests being given very low scores indeed , if we do this at the lower levels now with the younger riders we are setting up much more sympathetic riders too come. Anyway thats enough from me, I got a youngster to go and ride, Cheers Geoffrey

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Permalink Reply by Bernd on March 17, 2009 at 1:17pm

Hi,
I think there would be a point in having judges at the preparation area instead of stewards.

Especially dressage riders are very aware of judges opinions and will usually try to look as good as possible. After all this judge maybe in the jury at the next day.

Even though I believe dressage riders over estimate the effects of long term images as judges honestly try to make their judgement every time as accurate as possible, a judges word will carry more weight than that of a steward.

In addition the judge could be given more authority. For example he could give formal warnings to riders in case of hard treatment to the horse, even to the point of exluding a rider from the competition. He can do so for any ill treatment of the horse, unfair behaviour towards other competitors, insulting beviour agianst any officials (including the judge), stallions behaving dangerously against other horses etc, etc... He could even have a person, rider, trainer, visitor, whoever remove from the show in case of serious misbehaviour.

This regulation is done on all local shows in Germany. If the judge decides to exclude someone, no complaint against that decision will be accepted. A report will be generated and maybe lead to more serious sanctions after the show by the offcials.

It works. Today you will see only very few cases where sanctions would be necessary. It requires a judge with a real expert qualification, though. - But that's just a matter of training and personality

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Permalink Reply by Robert A Dunn on April 8, 2009 at 7:36pm

I'm really sorry to hear that there appear to be so many weak backed TDs at the shows. We shouldn't need a judge in the warm up area because a TD and ring steward should be watching for abuse. If the steward sees abuse it should be reported to the TD if one isn't right there and if the abuse is noted by the TD the rider should be called on it. I know there are TDs who do this because I have worked with them and in one instance was the witness when a formal warning was issued by the TD to a rider. I am not trying to trash TDs with this post. I know there are some great ones out there but according to the other posts on this thread some of them are not doing their job.

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Permalink Reply by Mary McGuire Smith on March 17, 2009 at 11:15pm

( I posted this a few days ago on another discussion that this question appeared in--great question, BTW--and have reprinted it here since here is where the activity seems to be. :-) )

oooo--I am going to open up a real can of radioactive worms here, but here goes (having never been one to shy away from instigating controversy--)......
The warmups could be judged by a separate panel of judges (from the pool of competition judges qualified to judge at the level of competition that applies), of course, as more of an overall impressions standpoint as opposed to the series of movements in the test, and the two scores will be combined at the end of each horse's actual test, for their final overall score and placing. The judges in the warmup phase would sit together and discuss their impressions and agree on a final "impression" score, which would then be submitted to the official scorer for addition to the test score. And this should be incorporated on every level in recognized competitions.
Comments? ;-)

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Permalink Reply by Ottilie on March 23, 2009 at 3:27pm

I agree that it is wrong to overlook ugly, incorrect work in the warm up, but there are indeed a few logistical problems with introducing judges there.
It would probably be very difficult for the judges to keep an eye on every competitor. Would they be accused of favouritism if they were to miss a transgression from a rider because they were (consciously or not) looking the other way?
What would prevent riders or trainers from warming up elsewhere, or maybe lunging the horse for an hour in the early morning, so they can then put on a good face in the warm up arena?
Would it be harder for judges to defend their decisions in the face of criticism from riders/trainers/supporters in the warm-up area? They would need some very clear guidelines as an 'impression' of good or bad may easily come down to personal taste, and everyone has a different style in the warm up. Perhaps it should be given a 10 from the start, with marks deducted for certain things like obvious tension/stress, overuse of rein/whip/spur, overworking the horse, "incorrect" riding (how would this be defined?). Maybe the mark from the warm-up could be added as a collective mark at the end of the test sheet, with a co-efficient...

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Permalink Reply by Bernd on March 26, 2009 at 1:52pm

Hi,
I think it would be a problem if the judge at the warm up had to give some scores for the competition. You mentioned the reasons already. Also the audience would not see the warm up and hence would not be able to follow the performance rating completely. It would definitly confuse everybody.

In terms of preventing unfair behavior towards horses or people, the judges should be empowered to use a system where they can issue official warnings or exclude someone in case real issues.

The judges are supposed to be competent authorities for the sport and should have the enough experience to really judge this. If for example a rider or trainer tried to intimidate a judge, he/she would be the first on the list to be sent home.

However they have to accept poor performance. So if a rider makes mistakes in the warm up, its not the judges job to teach him or her. (Riding lessons cost extra :-)))

I would suppose that just the fact, that a judge (or two) are controlling the warm up area will make people behave correctly in 99% of the cases. The rest 1% will be disqualified in some cases and have the opportunity to learn.

I think it would work.
ciao
bernd

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Permalink Reply by Jen B on April 10, 2009 at 8:39am

Off the top I'll say I am not a dressage competitor. I am curious to know what is going on in warm-ups that is so concerning, but I think the idea of a judge in the warm-up makes no sense to address the problem. Where would it stop? You can't have judges all over the grounds, all day, to catch those warming up elsewhere - heck at what point do you have to send them out to training barns?!
People are entering a performance and only that performance should be judged. The reward of good training should be excellent tests that are scored highly. Having stewards in the warm-up area seems very appropriate. If they are not calling people on poor behaviour, then that is the problem that needs to be fixed. As someone pointed out, if riders, coaches and stewards are all sending a reasonably consistent message about proper and humane training, the abusers will be weeded, shamed or, better yet, educated, out.
There's my two sense:)

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Permalink Reply by Bernd on December 14, 2009 at 12:00pm

Hi,
I think its pretty clear that the FEI won't be able to do anything. The FEI is an organization which has to work out agreements. As riders won't agree on the Rollkur topic, the FEI will not be able to find a an agreement that all FN's would support.

And an official vote on this may show Rollkur supporters in the majority. At the moment they have enough troble with voting on "progressive lists".

Ciao
bernd

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Permalink Reply by Bernd on December 15, 2009 at 7:49am

True, the show jumpers don't care that much either way. There are two differences though.
First of all, as soon as the horse jumps, hyperflexion is over. The horse has to lift its head and neck or else it won't be able to jump. That was one of the issues that came up alreay in the 1970th when Alwin Schockemöhle used it. He managed to get the horse lift the head up just in time, but other, less skilled riders, didn't and got problems.
At that time was a course builder assitant for large shows and it was very interesting to see the differences. Hans Günter Winkler for example never used it and his horses were extermely well trained.
The second difference is that show jumping is not a judging sport. There is simply no debate about the horses head position. It doesn't count.

I agree with you assessment that the FEI would need clear rules to ban Hyperflexion form the warm-up area. Those rules could be made, but that would need an agreement of most FN's and that will be impossible to get.

The stewards (or judges) at a warm-up area have to make sure the rules are followed. They cannot make their own judgements. Of course they have to sanction real abuse of the horses, but again that needs agreement and as we all know there are people who think hyperflexion is ok. So its nothing an official person could sanction in a horse show.

Merry x-mas

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