Personal space and respect

I don't believe that the horse being in "our space" has to be a sign of disrespect. First of all, it depends on what the horse has been taught; if we haven't told it that this is something we don't want, then how is it a sign of disrespect? Second off all; if we HAVE told it that we don't want it close, why do we have to look at it as disrespect? Why not use the word disobedient? And, why not take a closer look at WHY before we start making assumptions. I think the word respect and disrespect are overused and kind of hard to understand.

When I handle young horses as well as older, but insecure animals, they often try to get very close. They seem to want my support and help, and in my view that is far from disrespectful. Sometimes, if it's a big horse that is showing stress in a way that makes me think it is likely to jump in the air at any moment, I will get it to move away from me.

I don't do that with a light heart; I can see that I am pushing it away when it needs my support, but I do it to make sure I don't get hurt. Not that I think it would want to hurt me, but in that state of mind, when it is stressed by it's surroundings, it can easily happen that it gets spooked and can run me down unintentionally. If I am knocked down I won't be much good to the horse, so I get it to move away from me so I can try to help it with a distance between us until it has calmed down a little.

By doing that I make it even harder for the horse and it takes a bit longer for me to help it, but I also need to feel safe in order to be able to give the horse the reassurance that it needs.
As soon as I feel that the horse isn't explosive I will let it be very close to me, and from that position I can help it feel like it's OK.

I can see NO disrespect in a horse acting this way; the horse is doing the same thing a youngster does with it's mother. Notice how a horse often will get very close to the other horses when feeling upset! If a horse does that with me, I think of it as a good thing rather than a bad thing; the horse is showing me that it want's my support.

There is a lot of talk about us being the leader. What is the role of the leader if not this: someone they can turn to for support when they are feeling upset and insecure?

O'boy, I think I just entered another aspect of these body language signals, and this is a bit of a can of worms I'm afraid; the issue of leadership! :) I will get into that soon, it really is related to the calming signals in a way, but that will be in a separate posting :)

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Ellen Ofstad on September 26, 2010 at 2:54pm

How old is Oliver? Toby is 28?
What were you trying to accomplish in the video?

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on September 26, 2010 at 9:24pm

Oh Hi Ellen!! ...Oliver is 5.... in the video I'm just beginning to practice seeing if I can move them together... sometimes honestly, I just watch the video to see what I see... like when you videotaped the paint and the young gelding... just wondering between the two who is more in charge of whom? they don't really fight but I wonder if Oliver has the upper hand over toby or vice versa... but to see Toby push him and get the outside turn, then Toby to run off and Oliver to follow, I just find it interesting..... I'm just an observer.. wonder what you guys saw. This is part of my studies I do on herd behavior and stuff.... and just getting used to my video camera... I have no agenda really, I just am constantly in awe of horses and trying to understand them better.... :) I just thought since I have alot of different videos, for the purpose of sharing on Barnmice that this was a good spot for them... :)

Permalink Reply by Ellen Ofstad on October 11, 2010 at 10:04am

The interaction between them is a little to short to make an assessment from, but from what I saw in the first seconds is that your young one wants to play, and the other one tells him that he's not that eager to do so.

It reminds me a bit of when I was a kid and sent to spend a week with my grandmother. I was 14. She was 87. I loved her a lot, but it sure got a bit boring… we could talk and all that, but fun and games wasn't really something we could do together; the age difference were just to big.

I would like to see more clips from your horses:)

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on October 11, 2010 at 11:50am

Hi Ellen.. I'm sure you are right..... Toby is over it, LOL.. the babysitting... youngsters are so busy...

Permalink Reply by Cyndi on October 3, 2010 at 1:07pm

I'd like some advice on the topic of "personal space and respect". We've only been at our new barn for a week. I feel really comfortable there, in regards to the barn owner and the whole atmosphere. I am okay with the other four horses that are in the field with Fanny. I interact with them, but do keep safety in mind.

One of the horses in the field is a gorgeous 16.1h Friesian. I have never seen him act aggressively to the other horses, not even Fanny. He will quietly follow her around and will just sniff at her. He has a real presence about him, very bold and confident, but calm and not aggressive. When he tries to approach Fanny, she will put her ears back and really doesn't want much to do with him at all. Perhaps it's his confidence that intimidates her? I should try to video them so you can see what I'm talking about. He's obviously giving off signals that she's reading and I'm missing.

The advice I'm seeking concerns me interacting with the Friesian. He will walk right up to me and stand with me practically at his chest. He has never tried to bite me or act aggressively, and I do feel mostly calm around him, while keeping my safety in mind, but sometimes I do act calmer than I feel because he's "right there". He definitely gets in my personal space, and I'm usually the one who will move away from him rather than him move away from me. Do you suppose that he is the guardian of the herd and comes into my space to let me know that he's in charge? He is eight years old, and I don't know how old he was when he was gelded (he doesn't act studly, that I can see anyway). He will come to me and just stand there with me looking straight at his thick neck. He doesn't drop his head to be petted or anything like that, he just stands there proudly.

This is him. I believe his name is Harmon.

Permalink Reply by Marlene Thoms on October 3, 2010 at 4:37pm

Hi Cyndi, he is a beauty. Just earlier today I was looking at some videos of Friesens and they move so beautifully and proudly as you describe him. He looks pretty mellow in the picture doesn't he?Who knows what goes in their furry heads, but if I had to guess from your description, when he stands next to you like that, he is including you in the "herd", and letting you know that he is the one who is looking after things. My gelding has an older mare as a stable mate (not mine but she listens to me well). If a vet or farrier comes to tend to her, my gelding would be standing right there if he could, just so everyone knows he's looking after the business. (I generally put him on a halter or we take her to a different area ).He would never hurt anyone, but he keeps a very close eye on her whereabouts and welfare. When he gets trimmed she stands very nearby, I think she's providing calming moral support. Even though he's good for trimming, he has really calmed down in general ways because of her quiet stable presence. She even calms me down, whereas he sometimes makes me feel more jumpy. When she first came she did the same thing with him as your Fanny did, it was "Back off buddy, and get out of my face. I don't back down for whippersnappers!" (He's 11, she's 28). He is definitely more concerned about her whereabouts than she is of his.

Permalink Reply by Shirley on October 4, 2010 at 1:29am

Not claiming to know anything except what I've been told. What you describe about this Fresian is just what I've been told is normal for them... Very friendly and forward and curious but not aggressive. Kind of like they don't realize their own size? I've met a couple in pastures and they were like this too. The ones I've been around were not mean to people or pasture mates. Easy to get along with.

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on October 5, 2010 at 12:15pm

I sometimes wondered if Oliver was drafty at all because he reminds me of this same temperment... that's why I quit being all worried about it.... it's like you can just melt into them or jump on them.. they are so good at being close... how cool Cyndi that you are going to get to hang out with that hunky horse... wow.... Oliver, I should correct that, his mustang side won't let just anybody close to him... in that way he is NOT a Fresian like horse at all... just people he knows.... anyway, I'm jealous Cyndi..... though I do have a Gypsy Vanner Mare here boarded... she's a cute little drafty thing.

Permalink Reply by Cyndi on October 5, 2010 at 1:03pm

Hi Jennifer,

Don't be too jealous yet, because it's been raining most of the time here lately and it's been days since I've been to the barn!! There is no indoor arena, so there's not much I can do but stand in the rain and shiver. LOL I'm looking forward to getting to know all the horses in the field so that they are as comfortable with me as I am with them.

I have a friend who loves Gypsy Vanners, but can't afford one, so she's going to breed her "I-can-do-anything-with-her" Clydesdale mare to a GV stallion.

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on October 7, 2010 at 4:44pm

well I sure am having fun with my horses... I hope everyone else is too!!

Permalink Reply by Marlene Thoms on October 7, 2010 at 5:00pm

I've had a wonderful couple of weeks lately. After some dismal weather days in September I thought that was it for hopes for a nice autumn. Then the last couple of weeks have been absolutely beautiful. Sharif and I have been trouping up in the forested hills. For some reason he has been behaving better than before so that's a bonus. We've seen deer napping in the shade, too lazy to even get up when we came upon them next to the trail. Today we saw a handsome wild bobcat dashing away I'm happy to say, fortunately more scared of us than we were of him. Beautiful fall colors on the leaves, warm but not hot, absolutely perfect riding weather. Truly a time for giving thanks.

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on October 8, 2010 at 11:31am

awesome!! sounds like heaven.