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RollKur or Hyperflexion
The other day, my young dressage students who are also 4H members came and asked me about Rollkur. Well, I'd never herd of it, but after seeing some videos and pictures on youtube, I am more than a little disturbed by this training method; however, I know nothing about the logistics of it. It seems to be very wide spread and used by Anky and Isabelle at the International levels.
Can you please help me to understand the theory, practicality, benefits and risks to using this technique?
Can you please help me to understand the theory, practicality, benefits and risks to using this technique?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Anna Hawke on
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I suppose this is what people would rather see in the US for dressage, it makes them much more comfortable it is what they like and what they are use to.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://lh5.ggpht.com/Dressag...
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You can take a clip of anything and make it look bad, and than start a whole entire movement against it if you build up enough support. The latter Hitler did and it was a sick outcome. To have so much resistance to the placement of where a horses neck is placed in training is worrisome, not for the horse but for the community that has such an extreme view on where a horses head needs to be in training.
I suppose those against Rollkur will also be against reining since the horse needs to carry his head low in an unnatural position. I suppose they would call that forced despite the fact there is a two foot loop in the rein; a loop that many of the top riders in the Rollkur system would might easily put in their rein if they chose to.
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The point being in the link I posted above in not to show a bunch of “classically” trained horses with their tongues out or heads behind the vertical (which it does) and say that they are all wrong and should be stopped from riding. My point is not to say they are all so imperfect (although it seems to be that was the point of the author of that post). My point is to say that nobody is perfect, nobody. Those photos are of riders learning, growing, trying and they are out there performing which is not a sin, it IS the point for many people to show. They are good and healthy to be out there trying. They are not perfect but that is what the judge is there for, THE JUDGE, not the crowd watching. There sure are a lot of very critical people in the sport of dressage who like to do their very best to take the fun out of it and put other riders down. That attitude seems to run rampant in dressage and be continuously fed and promoted by many people involved in the sport of dressage. It is an embarrassment to good sportsmanship. Riders need to be able to set goals, achieve them and grow beyond that goal to reach the next, without getting insulted and picked apart by all of their FELLOW COMPETITORS for being imperfect as they learn, improve and gain experience. There is a judge there for a reason.The claims many claims that for those who ride Rollkur are doing it at the expense of the horse is seeming to claim that those who ride in that method are wrong NOT ONLY to ride that way but now also wrong to set goals to compete.
If any Olympic athlete dressage or any other sport does not enter into the arena to win, they should not be in the game and not be representing their country. It is presumptuous to assume those who are successful at winning must be doing something wrong and compromising somebody somewhere somehow or in the sport of dressage some horse to be winning and successful. It is presumptuous to assume a winning rider has no compassion for their animal, there is no way for anyone to know if a rider does or does not except the rider themselves.
Good sportsmanship is what is desperately needed in the sport of dressage.
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Furthermore I propose the cry out for compassion of the horse ridden in Rollkur and the accusations of the method being abusive is used as a red herring and that the real problem people have with Rollkur and the reason they have to revolt against it is the lack of access that they and others have to a method and system of riding that has proven to yield superior results.
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Permalink Reply by Jan Jollymour on
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Well said, slic2!
There are two sides to every issue (sometimes there are more), and we need to be aware of all of them.
I agree that there are horses who benefit from being ridden for short periods behind the vertical, which, as you say, is RADICALLY different from being ridden behind the bit, which cannot be categorized as anything but a fault. I think the issue comes from the degree to which horses are ridden behind the vertical, for how long they are kept there, and how they are persuaded to go there in the first place.
There is no doubt in my mind, and this is my personal opinion as a long time trainer (45+ years), that many of the horses currently being ridden in hyperflexion are forced there, and held there, with damaging results. Many of those horses are winning in major international competitions, and their locked backs and clear lack of engagement, coupled with the riders' locked backs and elbows are a testatment to the incorrectness of the training of both horses and riders. Only the incredible physcial talent and generosity of the horses in these instances allow for this riding to win, coupled with, apparently, the inability of the judges to (a) see what they are supposed to be looking for, and (b) respond appropriately. I have yet to ride a horse trained in hyperflexion which felt through in the back and truly connected from the hocks to the bridle.
However, to paraphrase some of your statements, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater! I have also had horses in for training, and I certainly meet many in the clinics I teach, who definitely benefit from lower and rounder work than I would ordinarily recommend, and I would hate for those horses to lose out on quality training and positive futures because some arbitrary rule about the degree of roundess allowed was put into play.
We need to weigh many factors when dealing with this issue, and attempt to keep open minds while doing so. Rabid commentary on either side of the argument only serves to entrench previous ideas, and does not further rational dialogue.
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Permalink Reply by Bernd on
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Very interesting discussion.
Parick Kittel for example got some problems from that published video. He has a sponsor who is getting nervous about bad PR. So the discussion itself can generate problems that nobody thought of in the beginning.
We are all riders. We all love horses, Rollkur or not. But some of us want (have) to win the Olympics.
As dressage is a judging sport we should look again at our ideals. What make a good dressage perfomance? Is it the powerful radiation of energy demonstrated by Totilas? or would you rather say it is the ease and harnomy of riding demonstrated by the Wiener Hofreitschule?
There is no doubt what wins todays gold medals- its the power.
But if you were an average rider, do you think you could ride Totilas, maybe even in a less demanding test? You may want to, but you willl feel like an average car driver placed behing the steering wheel of a formula 1 racing car.
Using Rollkur in training has some effects that makes these "formula1" horses better manageable and it puts the rider in a positition to ask the most extensive movements from the horse, using stress and exitement as means to produce those movements. The rerward is to win, the downside is that you take chances of getting the horse too much exited, putting it out of control. This and a too extensive use may also create some damage. It all depends how good you are. You need to stop in time before you overstrain or damage the horse. Also not all horses will survive such training with their body and/ or nerves undamaged.
But,- its one way to win. There maybe others, but this one works, too.
By the way, as that question was raised early. You shouldn't try Rollkur for your eventing or show juming horses, at least not when you want the horse to jump the fence instead of running it over. The show jumping riders take great care to let the horse lift up the head before it jumps. And in cross country an overbent horse is pretty dangerous for the rider.
As I'm not trying to win the Olympics, I don't need Rollkur, but what if I wanted?
Its a question for the judges. They give the scores.
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Thank you for your thoughtful commentary. It is a pleasure to read a perspective that is coming from an open and thinking mind. The blend that you discuss is already happening for a number of people but they are not the same people who are throwing up their arms in resistance to moving forward and living in the past talking only about the way it was and much better it used to be.
Yes there is good and bad riding if you use rollkur or not. The process of becoming a good rider has a learning curve and it is rarely a straight paths without a few mistakes made along the way. It goes without saying the goal of course is to try to avoid mistakes but if you make them learn from them than move on without making them again.
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My understanding of this topic is that the nuchal ligament, that runs along the top of the neck and ties into the skull, is damaged by excessive over-bending. The reason that these upper level dressage riders think it's a good thing, is that the horse learns to spring off their front legs to get more suspension in the piaffe and passage, making for very expressive looking movements, but it basically kills their ability to use their back correctly, and therefore is the antitheses to true classical dressage.
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Permalink Reply by Elizabeth Gormley on
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Hello slc2,
what you say here about the study i find interesting so i will give my two cents on it. (I wrote the summary by the way) In the actual paper the author mentioned the fact that different breeds in other training disciplines had also experienced DLC with poll flexion. He also mentioned the suspicion that researchers had before the study we are referring to here that the coldblood trotters had this diagnosis because of some physical variation in their neck/throatlatch conformation or internal airway or upper respiratory tract (URT) morphology.
The traditional belief of horse trainers has been the categorising of horses either with a fine throatlatch or as coarse thru the TL. I am well aware of the difference in a coldblood "carthorse" type of horse vs. a horse with a lot of TB or Arab blood. With this concept in mind from a training perspective, I found it interesting that DLC was diagnosed even in Saddlebreds and Tennessee Walkers in Kentucky "gaited breeds". These breeds, especially in individuals that compete, are selected for very fine throatlatches with cheekbone conformation which horsemen in ages past believed to allow better poll flexion in these gaited breed riding styles. These horses were also in a region known not to diagnose DLC very frequently if at all, inferring that the cases in Kentucky were sufficiently severe enough to be noticed by vets who do not initially have DLC as a diagnostic suspicion.
This condition is also not the same as the laryngeal paralysis (slang term flapper) seen in TBs. Checking a diagram of the aforementioned anatomical structures on google images (lawyers will start calling my house if i attempt to post it here) one can see the parts that are being obstructed. In some horses DLC may occur more or less frequently as the author said they will set some experiments up to try to tease out exactly why some breeds get diagnosed with it more than others. Clearly though the author did cite proof that DLC with poll flexion can occur in all breeds. DLC in racing TB's is in my opinion most relevant to jumpers and eventers. It is also interesting that the TB which has been selected for a very large airway and a fine throatlatch still experiences DLC with the relatively minor flexion of racing style work. Something for our minds to chew on..... Thanks for your comment on and interest in the article, your pertinent question about it shows that we are all working towards the same goals- better training and horse welfare.
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Hello great to hear from you.
you said-
"I do understand airway collapse occurs in many types and breeds of horses. The point I am trying to make is that it is a condition not all top flight dressage horses being hyperflexed, actually have. Therefore, as an argument for banning hyperflexion, it has a weakness."
I agree with you. The intent was not to use the article as an argument to ban hyperflexion. Coverage of the presentation given was the goal. The main author has been publishing lately about related subjects such as variations in morphology and neurology, even immuno-neurology of the equine upper airway. The conclusions so far point to each horse having different internal throat/airway phenotypes. I think it is similar to a horse mouth size. It has nothing to do with the size of the horse sometimes the big horses have tiny mouths with low palate, etc.
When a horse assumes a flexed otv position or btv each horse has a unique internal airway response. That seems to be what has been found most recently based on the total body of research in the area.
The jaw/neckbone measure is a traditional and i think effective test. It is part of the definition of throatlatch type, and is a vital feature of horse suitability. To describe the atl/ax joint phenotypic variations i have also heard the term "long poll vs. short poll." I believe also the definition of neck coarseness or fineness is lacking in specificity and evidence base. However what the research is saying according to the authors of the studies (i am not drawing the conclusions, i am merely relaying them) appears to be that there is frequently a great deal of internal airway variation that may be just as great within breeds as between them. The airway is affected by jaw structure, but even in "fine throated" horses with optimum external measures that you and i both consider important the airway inside can be intolerant of certain head positions. Apparently this is not rare according to this increasing body of research. I find this to be significant in that with training horses one can zero in on idiosyncratic performance issues previously not considered. I come from an eventing background so i am sensitised to airway induced performance issues. I do not think it will become overdiagnosed or the diagnosis du jour, but i do think vets are getting much better all the time at detecting airway induced compromise in performance.
From an ethology perspective, if there is anything that we may not notice when working a horse that still causes the animal to experience a punitive effect, then stress will increase in the horse making the training less efficient and humane. Time is money so anything that slows training can prevent a horse being sold for example, contributing to equine wastage in the industry.
I do not personally subjectively think hyperflexion is effective as a training modality. I am also of the opinion that it would not help an eventer or jumper perform better, in fact for eventers i think it is dangerous.. This is evidence based i will write some things about that research in future. There are some trainers that disagree, and i do not impugn them. Dressage specialist trainers use it because it produces the exact effect that wins currently. I am not a specialist in that type of training (competitive dressage), so all i can really do is give my opinion on what it does according to what science and history combined have demonstrated based on all the info so far. I would be amiss to leave out the fact that many vets i know are opposed to hyperflexion as a training method. The definition the vets i mention use is the strict one-chin touching chest, not just btv. These vet's opinions may not impress specilised trainers tho.
This debate needs to take the blame and emotionality out as it is slowing down the finding of facts. Please everyone reading this do not take anything i say to be a negative judgement. Ask before assuming that i am talking nonsense or insults. (i am not saying anyone is doing this, but just in case i come across negatively). I wish evidence from all perspectives could be discussed objectively. Rein tension meters used during training and in competition warmups would help to stop some of this endless speculation. I know we all just want to train our horses better for our safety and their welfare.
http://www.reintension.net/
"In order to answer the question "is the rider or the horse pulling ?", an accelerometer mounted inside the data logger could provide this information."
i hate to see anyone being the shot messenger because of their view on this technique
even though my position is to be against hyperflexion. We must all try to keep finding ways to ensure we are training better. I enjoy hearing all the viewpoints on this.
Even those of us opposed to hyperflexion may be causing our horses pain in some other way without our knowledge. I hope that evidence of this also can be brought to light so we can all avoid causing compromises to horse welfare, even if it may be bad news to us initially (finding out that any of us may be unintentionally hurting a horse).
beth
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Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on
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I finally gave up and got Tineke and Joep Bartels "Ride Horses with Awareness and Feel". I am not very far into it yet. So far they just talk of LDR, further on in the book I will get to read their rationals behind its use and how they apply it. It will take me a while to read it as my brain will be comparing it to all the other riding books I've read, and that process is very tiring for me. Hopefully in a few weeks I can come to a slightly educated opinion, one that will not include riding horses developed by LDR (my limitations.)
Let me note that none of the pictures in the book have the horse's chin plastered to his chest, or what I've seen described as Rollkur, but quite a few of the pictures do show LDR.
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. Here is where I am coming from. I trained in Holland with a trainer who spent many years learning from Anky. What I learned there was priceless to me and better than anything I learned in America. It also has nothing to do with the majority of the problems people who are opposed to that riding system complain about. I feel unless you have studied it by riding that method in training every single day committed to learning and understanding what is REALLY going on with it and not what a bystander PERCIEVES is going on with it you are not going to be able to understand what is happening, good or bad.
I have had to practically isolate myself totally to avoid dealing with people who want me to stop riding how I ride in order to enjoy training my horses; and I have done that. I have very, very happy horses and I love every minute of my time riding them and they are developing beautifully. It is to bad I have to do it alone unless I return oversees to have company that is not going to try to hurt ME. It is not any of my horses that have ever suffered in the method I ride them in, on the contrary they are incredibly well and happy. My 20 year old is better than he has ever been and he has been ridden in this method for over eight years and he is better now at twenty than ever, the method only makes him better every year. It is not my horses that suffer but me who suffers from the way people react and treat me just because of my style of riding. It still baffles me. There have been a few people and I mean a very few who wanted to learn what I know, and I have taught them while I could be with them, and not one of them has regretted it.
I do not regret what I have learned it was good and I never will regret what is good. I regret not beinng able to share with others though.
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