Ground manners- The increasing importance as the horse gets fitter

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jan Jollymour on March 11, 2009 at 3:48pm

Hi,Geoffrey:

This can happen with horses in all kinds of disciplines, and certainly happens with young warmbloods as they begin to become more powerful and confident. When I see that happening I take the horse right back to square one: groundwork with a stud chain and a dressage whip. We work through obstacles and on trails, working on halts, turns, walking/trotting on, navigating twists, backing up, etc. When that's happeniing with some respect and attention from the horse I take the rider through the same work with the horse. Once respect and attention have been achieved on the ground between horse and rider we move to work under saddle, so much of the same thing. We are prepared to be tough, if necessary, but usually horses recall their early lessons pretty quickly. This usually only takes a couple of days to accomplish with horses which were properly mannered to start with.

I am very reluctant to move to more bit when I feel the problem is rooted in training or the lack thereof, or, most often, in the rider's just having let behaviours slide until they become problematic. I'd rather address the training issues, and riding and attitudinal issues, than hit the horse with a stronger bit.

Hope this helps!

Permalink Reply by Geoffrey Pannell on March 12, 2009 at 2:54am

Thanks Jan , I was beginning to think no-one was reading this page anymore! What I was wondering out loud with this discussion was, why as trainers and riders there seems to be gap or a mis-understanding as to how to address the most basic principles as the performance horse's fitness increases. I.E. The basic stop and go aids on the ground, if the horse is not listening to these aids (as they are prone to do as they get fitter and as you say more powerful and confident) how as trainers, and coaches, do we address this with the pupil in their environment . When we brake in youngsters we spend a lot of time getting them to stop , go , turn, park, and yield, and then it seems we go to the next step and don't seem to see the importance of this ongoing training . How many times do , as a coach, do we have pupils come to us with horses that just have no regard for us on the ground and consequently are increasingly difficult under saddle? Does any one else see this at comps? Is it one of the contributing factors in so many fatal and near fatal accidents in the eventing world?

Permalink Reply by Jan Jollymour on March 12, 2009 at 9:57am

Hi, Geoffrey:

It's not just happening amongst eventers - it's becoming a plague in the dressage world, as more and more amateurs purchase big, powerful warmbloods without becoming horsemen first. We have a lot of women trying to handle tall and powerful horses without any real idea of how to do so, and they are as much a menace on the ground as in the saddle. Think about the number who buy stallions...!

I think that as coaches we are under the gun. Our clients want horses which can and will win, and they very often want and have committed the funds to buy horses they cannot ride. Coaches and trainers become part of this cycle, as we all know that it takes less energy to school horses than to teach clients, and that the combination of boarding and training fees usually adds up to more than lesson fees. It's hard to resist that lure, especially when one has clients pushing for horses they can't and won't ever be able to ride.

Also, I think we're making more individuals are entering the industry based on their abilities in the saddle alone, rather than based on their abilities as horsemen. Certainly in North America the Young Rider program is producing young people who are convinced they know everything they need to know, and are now "trainers" by virtue of their YR experience on already schooled and experienced horses. I have to agree with George Morris on this issue. Just because someone can ride doesn't mean that they are horsemen in the classic sense of the term, and it sure doesn't mean they can teach or should be entrusted with coaching others.

I think the problem's fundamental, as you say. I used to judge a lot of eventing dressage tests, and was often a member of the Ground Jury, and I have say that the horsemanship overall has deteriorated alarmingly over the past 15 years. I would have expected the opposite, given the information now available to most people, but it's definitely gone the other way. The other thing I've noticed is the truly scarey number of people moving up to Preliminary and Intermediate levels of competition with no flatwork skills at all. They just keep buying better horses and tearing around courses. No wonder the mortality rate's climbing.

Whoops - gotta get off my soapbox and get my daughter to school!

Permalink Reply by Geoffrey Pannell on March 12, 2009 at 6:24pm

Yes Jan we are definitely on the same wave length here. There are far too many people out there after instant results, like most things these days everything is so quick and instant , that expectation to progress rapidly is almost hard wired now. It takes TIME to become a horseman , time that people don't want to spend. With regard to the YR "trainers" they are convinced that only their particular methods and principles are sound. They point to their success as proof and tend to regard further discussion as pointless. As Anthony Paalman said in his book Training Showjumpers," What is and what is not correct is, a matter of opinion. I believe that there are various approaches and that there are some which are better and more effective than others. One must progress beyond mere expansion of a basic technique, or the implementation of what has been handed down by one's predecessors.An ability to isolate the good from the bad and to apply it accordingly in one's own methods is essential. A real horseman will always be alert to suggestions and advice which can improve himself and his horse." I think in this modern day some have lost sight of this . Cheers Geoffrey

Permalink Reply by Karin on March 20, 2009 at 10:25pm

Hi both, I very much enjoyed reading your messages. Many years ago, when I was just starting coaching, I had the opportunity to observe a herd of 12 horses. I learned a tremendous amount about horses and how they behave under different circumstances. My students owned these horses and most were not well schooled. Over the next 10 years or so, I developed what I call a "bag of tricks". It basically means that by trial and error, I learned what works and what doesn't. I don't assume that all horses can be trained using the same methods and I often see coaches telling a student what to do, using inappropriate methods with the horse reacting exactly the same way over and over with no improvement. Developing your own "bag of tricks" takes a long time and you cannot be a horseman without a sense of what each horse needs at any particular moment. With kind regards, Karin

Permalink Reply by Geoffrey Pannell on March 21, 2009 at 5:31am

Hi Karin, That's so correct , we can learn so much from other peoples "bags of tricks" from their observeations of many years . Thanks for your input, Cheers Geoffrey

Permalink Reply by Wendy on June 30, 2009 at 9:43am

Hi Geoffrey,
Yes, I agree with you totally. I've been doing a lot of groundwork with my 4 year old warmblood, 17.2 HH.... His manners have been impeccable, however, now that we're getting on to bigger and better things, and he's feeling like his sh** doesn't stink, he's trying me on for size. What I do is bring him right back to basic groundwork such the backing up, turning on his forehand, leading, and so on. It brings him down a notch and then he's great ! Actually, what I find is that doing this kind of basic work makes him feel pretty good too - I'm thinking that his attitude is "geez, I know I can do this very easily" and doesn't have to prove anything to me.

Permalink Reply by Jan Jollymour on June 30, 2009 at 10:27am

Hi, Wendy:

What you're finding is exactly what we're talking about. You are doing the right things! For some reason, this solution seems to be the one many people don't think of, and the horses just get worse. I encountered the problem yet again this past weekend, with a warmblood gelding who's essentially a nice guy, but who has discovered that he (a) doesn't have to respect his rider on the ground, and then (b) really lost his respect for the rider in the saddle. Neither his trainer nor I had any trouble with him, as we both corrected his first push into our space on the ground. I had to start the dressage lesson with teaching his rider to correct his disrespect at the mounting block, and then carrying that over into the mounted lesson.

Thanks for your comments!

Permalink Reply by Geoffrey Pannell on June 30, 2009 at 9:20pm

Hi Wendy, Thats great that you are on the right track with your 4 yo , I don't believe that horses think that much about weather it's easy or not , the ground work is just re-establising that we are the Alpha animal . Having said that though , it's about showing the horse the path of least resistance so that they are looking for the easy anwser I.E. pressure release to go forward, through the halter on the ground, or from the leg under saddle. Like Jan has said the simple thing with having the horse respect your space is a very easy thing but is seldom enforced, and these little things come back to bite you in other ways later on. If the bacis are not enforced and re-enforced throughout the education of the horse the foundation of the higher work later on is week and leeds to problems in the horses understanding what we want. So you get more disobedience through the horses simply not understanding what to do.

Permalink Reply by Wendy on July 23, 2009 at 9:56am

Hi Geoffrey, well, I've been taking Ben back to basics and recently something else has occurred and I can't figure out why. I'm very depressed about it and yesterday that terrible thought came into my head, "maybe I should just sell him". As I said I've been bringing him back to basics, but when I finished longing him yesterday, I was taking off his bridle to put on his halter and he took off from me. He still had his saddle on, and every time I went to put the halter on he walked away. Which to me means he has a total lack of respect for me. I'm starting to get a little nervous around him also - we just don't seem to be connected anymore. It used to be that I could do anything around him and he'd not react at all. Now, there's the walking away from me. He's spooking at little things.... He's very big and can be intimidating. I'm at the point where I'm a little nervous working with him because I don't know how he's going to react.

Permalink Reply by Geoffrey Pannell on July 23, 2009 at 6:14pm

Hi Wendy, Look I wouldn't through the baby out with the bathwater just yet. One of the most important things in training is not to take things personally. Young horses will always push the boundaries from time to time, it's normal. The training at this stage is about eliminating the behaviours we don't want, so next time to stop him from running away , put the halter on before you take the bridle off. Are you being super consistent with the stop and go techniques and correcting him every time ? Are you practicing the park technique? Horses are emotional sponges ,so he will be picking up on you nerves, have a plan each time you work with him so you have a definite thing you are going to work with . Chanel your energy into positive thoughts and don't sweat the small stuff. Keep us posted on you progress. The other thing too, if you find that the horse is just to intimidating it's not a measure of your horsemanship if you don't get on with him . Sometimes I have horses here that I just don't gel with , we are not going to get on with every horse and you shouldn't feel like a failure if it doesn't work out. As long as you don't feel in danger when you are with him , there are still a few things we can try yet. What I'm saying here is don't feel any less as a person if this horse doesn't work out. Cheers Geoffrey

Permalink Reply by Wendy on July 23, 2009 at 7:30pm

Whoa! Thank you. I feel better. I HAVE been taking it personally. I'm losing sight of the big picture I think. Again, thank you and I'll keep you posted.

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