What do you say??? A yes or a no for Natural Horsemanship??

I came up with the idea to start a discussion on the topic: Natural Horsemanship
This because I am a true fan of this way of training, and have had lots of success using this method, on many different horses, with different personalities and training issues.
Even though I am really into this form of training, at the same time I am critical about it. This because I have seen many ( very novice) people, thinking they were doing natural horsemanship, while in fact they didn't have a true understanding of it, and what they were trying to achieve, leading to sometimes very dangerous situations.

I think, because the big NH people, make it so commercial, they attract people that can afford it, but not necessairy people that have a deep feel and understanding about horses to begin with. The way it is being spread out to the world, is almost fairytale like, and it looks amazing, all this softness and lightness............. Unfortunatelly, in reality, this is the end goal, but cannot always be how it will go at the start of the training. I have worked with many horses, of which many were/ are stallions, and I couldn't start off being soft and cuddly, as they would have crushed me within one second. I had to level my energy with theirs, and sometimes that means that I have to correct them hard and firm, but eventually they become soft and light, and respond only to a change in my body :)

Don't get me wrong, I love NH, groundwork, and I have done the most amazing things, through this kind of work with horses. But I don't believe that one system, works for every horse, as they are all individuals, and some of them have had some very traumatic experiences.
I wish, that the bigger people in NH, would make their methods more accessable, for people that truly have the talent and the feel to become good mentors themselves. That way, the point that they are trying to spread out to the world, won't loose any quality.......
I would love to know, what other people think about this subject,

So bring it on with the comments on this everyone!!!!!

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Hi Anneke
The words 'can of worms' spring to mind here! Bring it on indeed!!! :-)

The first thing I would want to check out is what do you mean by Natural Horsemanship? I think you are talking about those horsemen who use round penning and groundwork in their training, but even that is open to interpretation! I know that Chris Irwin, for instance, would not class himself as a Natural Horsemanship trainer - in his own words...'The phrase "natural horsemanship"... is a dangerous oxymoron. It suggests that horses are fine as they are, that humans screw them up, and the trainer's job is to return the animal to its original state of grace' (Irwin 2005, p162). He goes on to say 'We are not trying to create something natural here, or allow our horses to behave as they do out in the pasture. I don't want a natural horse; I want a supernatural horse... We're using natural means, but to artificial ends. And as long as we keep the horse's best interests at the forefront, I believe that's how it should be.' (Irwin 2005, p163).

I agree entirely with what you say about the bigger people in the NH world should be making their methods more accessible, but I guess at the end of the day they are selling a product and it's how they make their money. Some more so than others. For me, Linda Kohanov sums it up very eloquently when she says 'The biggest mistake novice equestrians make in idolizing these horse whisperers involves trying to follow their methods without appreciating the awareness, self-knowledge, and horse sense these men perfected while creating those methods. Some clinicians, however, unknowingly perpetuate the problem by focusing on particular activities and the special tack they've designed to go along with them, ignoring the almost entirely nonverbal physical, psychological, and spiritual nuances that bring these techniques to life' (Kohanov 2001, p169). She makes the point that when you see a 'natural horseman' achieving 'join-up' with an unbroken horse in a short space of time, you are amazed and impressed. But what you don't necessarily acknowledge is the years of experience, the awareness of the subtleties of body language and horse behaviour that they have gained through working with thousands of horses. And then when you are sold a 'set of techniques', with an easy step-by-step approach you believe it is possible to do the same and find out the hard way that it isn't.

I love what you say about the way it is being sold as being an amazing fairytale and to that I would say 'that is all just smoke and mirrors'! I would also add to what you say that some horses have had very traumatic experiences as a direct result of people trying to use these 'techniques' in the name of being kinder by using natural horsemanship.

I could go on but I haven't the time now, sadly. I can't wait for the rest of this debate! I love it - bring it on!!! And well done for raising this!


Fiona

Refs:

Irwin C (2005). Dancing with your Dark Horse. New York: Marlowe & Company

Kohanov L (2001). The Tao of Equus. California. New World Library.
OMG, awesome, here I am to go around about this with ya girl!! Love the topic.... let me tell you my story of N.H.... and how I've had to really learn some stuff. I've had horses for 5 years..... so I am a sponge, and I've learned from all the best guys out there.... however, RECENTLY, I found Chris Irwin and Gawaini Pony boy... after getting crushed by my 3 year old mustang... a horse I've known for 3 years, and raised from a baby.... and have been cuddly with sort of.... I also have a professional mustang wrangler, my awesome trainer, steve boyles, that brought me my orphan colt and we've worked with him since he was 8 weeks old... but ME, I knew nada girlfriend, I was brand new.... I am here to tell you that I got into a ton of trouble trying stuff in my backyard alone with my young horse... my older horse that was my first horse is 27 and I had to learn how to undo a load of junk that he had in his trunk..... as a novice, I did not have the feel.... I just was getting Oliver my baby so mad... then frustrated, then we would crash....

I think you are right that every trainer has something to offer, but I never knew how to put it in order until now..... So, have a trainer, 2 horses, decide to get into it with my 3 year old, crashed, doing "getting control on the ground".... slow down, back up, start over..... 4 months ago.... First I started with Chris Irwins videos after going to the book store in pain and tears and finding his book, "horses don't lie"... and thankfully his info is in the back of the book... and I cannot say enough how we are so blessed that he put them up..... but I still had to take a few steps back and I got into Ponyboy.... these were the only two trainers I hadn't been exposed to.... I've learned from Clinton, CCox, Pat, Linda, Julie G, Ryan G, Tommy Garland, mostly from being a huge proponent of RFDTV. If you guys can get it, I strongly suggest it.... free classes weekly for the price of the channel on Cable.... okay, so...

Ponyboy taught me "time well spent with your horse".... OMG, there is a name for it? I literally spent 4 months now hanging out with, working with energy, getting my horses to join up, and just hanging out... this has brought me more of a "feel"..... my horse is not frustrated with me anymore.... Thank you PBoy!! for giving people permission to slow down and have a relationship with their horse.... maybe this is not N.H. but more Relationship Training, but I am all over it.... I have healed my shoulder and my hip since oliver Crashed into me, and I quit staring at his head.... and I quit bringing him into me and I quit asking him to jump on me... things I did not realize I was doing.. Thank you Chris Irwin!! Roundpenning sessions are so workin for me... as well as all the body language training that you gave me....

So here is my point... I have a trainer. I've paid zillions to him, he is awesome... my horse is awesome.. me and my horse were not awesome... we knew each other for four years and had a crappy relationship... I found Chris Irwin 4 months ago and ponboy too.... before then, I'd done all my work with my elder horse and this is what I know to date...

With Toby I can lead like a N.H. trainer would teach you, not dragging, but side my side keeping him out of my space.

roundpenning, changing directions,

riding... flexion and bending first, disengaging his hind quarters, getting him soft and supple...

ground work and trailer loading, stuff like that.

I have basically spent five years on the ground, light riding and I love working in my roundpen with my horses...

Oliver, 4...

Energy work and roundpenning. He fricken needs a bag on the end of the whip to move..... this is why N.H. was getting me in so much trouble.. he did not move to the swinging rope and he did not like it if it touched him, I was looking at his head and all the while literally begging him to come into my space and mow me down whenever I was in the pen with him... isn't that sad? My trainer was saying, "you are pulling him into you..." Chris Cox would say, "you are pulling him into you, don't look at his eyes"... Chris Irwin said, "don't look at a horse in the face and ask him to come forward... he will jump on you.,stare at his hip, use your belly button and push him off" Thanks Chris... that only took four years for 30 people to say it a different way for me to get it..... DIFFERENT TRAINERS HELP YOU FIND THE ANSWER HOW YOU LEARN!!

During my Time Well Spent with my horse I practiced Chris Irwin's alpha thing.... he said if my horse is a 6 be a 7.... My trainer and my communicator and I discovered that Oliver is around a 4 or 5... If I was being a jerky 10 to him, all fearful because he was jumping on me, I made it worse.... (am I even talking about N.H?)

so, N.H.... I think it is dangerous... I really do., until you know what you are doing, and then it is a mircale.... ... I watched RFDTV last night and Chris Cox, who I adore, was having old ladies out there disengaging the horses hind quarters and he was telling them to be confident, the horse knows you are scared, blah blah... I said to myself lastinight, I remember when I started there and it got me in big trouble.... and crap, I was scared...

Now I am working with Oliver on forward motion like Chris Irwin and Ponyboy teach it... scoot him along then a little more and a little more... then a little faster and a little faster, then go for a halter, then his hip.....

Oliver turned 4 during the last four months.

Oliver and I are getting along so great... I am not scared of him anymore, he is not crashing into me, he is moving his feet by me barely looking at them (energy work, P.B., ) and s l o w l y we are getting a relationship going of trust and respect.... I am much happier. I used to cry because I was thinking why do I have this baby? I suck, I can't keep up with pat Parelli, Chris Cox, Craig Cameron, Clinton Anderson..... and Pony Boy slowed me way down... told me to spend time with my herd, then Chris Irwin talked about domination levels and alpha, and so on and so forth... their energy is so much less... in such a less of a hurry..... Five years I've been doing groundwork... people probably laugh at me behind my back that I don't ride my horses.... I am still working on a relationship? b o r i n g..... I find it getting me the 'feel" girl... the confidence, the correct energy and the feel of my horses and what makes them tick... N.H. was pushing me too far too fast, in the wrong direction and I was getting hurt... Novices have to realize that those videos leave gaps that the trainers do not realize they are not explaining.... all of them.... even ponyboy.. I watched one of his videos and he left a part out... now I'm asking my trainer what I need to do to get the stop at liberty.... so Oliver doesn't take a step in or out, but uses his butt to stop.... nobody has all the answers... but also, nobody explains it so everyone can understand it....

I hope I didn't bore you to DEATH....

Novices, be careful.... trainers are mostly men, they assume we understand what they are saying, they make it look easy, and it can be very dangerous.....

I love N.H. and I hope to aspire to higher levels.... that is not what I'm saying... I'm saying that novices cannot go in with th same energy that the trainers expect... that is just my humble opinion...

Jen
Jennifer and Fiona, Thanks so much for the replies!! I loved it!!

So agree with what you guys both say! Fiona, I am going to look into this lady, Linda Kohanov. I have never heard of her, but I love what she describes about the spiritual connection. Horses are truly spiritual beings, and all we have to do is listen to what they say, and try to understand them. Once you have that deep connection with a horse, it is the best there is!
Jennifer, thanks for sharing your story with us :) I'm sorry to hear you got hurt, but good on you for looking into it, and for being brave enough to keep going with it! I have all the trust in the world, that you will establish a wonderful connection with your horse!I agree, actually in my mind, the name natural horsemanship is totally wrong. Because if we wanted to be totally natural with our horses, they would be living in a field and we would never ever touch them!!!  That phrase about supernatural horses, that is a good one!I think, common horse sense would also be a good name for it :)What I have seen a lot, are people that go through the levels of a certain system, with a retired horse, that is as sweet as pie, and then when they have gotten up to level 3 or 4, they think they can do this work with every horse they lay their hands on. And I find that so dangerous! I worked at a place for a while, where NH was a big thing. But the thing was, that none of the clients, nor the owner of the place, where actually doing that, what NH was created for. For me, safety is a big thing, and it is most important to me. This I learned through the years, and through working with so many different horses. The first thing I teach any horse that I work with, and it doesn't matter if this horse is young, old, big or small, I establish what my boundries are in terms of space etc. I have seen many people doing all these steps, without establishing really what needs to be established! And that is respect, trust and leadership. What also gets to me, not only from the NH training side of things, but just in general, with any training method, is that it is always put out there in a way, that it is absolutely forbidden to make mistakes!!!I work with horses proffessionally, and have worked with many many horses over the years, from youngsters, stallions, horses that have been messed up at some stage in their lives. And boy did I make many mistakes, but they all made me a better horse person!! Mistakes are oke, as long as you are willing to look into them and try to learn from them, so that you learn from and with your horse, it is ok!
Gosh, well, wanted to write so much more, but have to go now!!

More later, and keep bringing it on everyone!! :)
You probably won't like my response.
A few years ago I was lent the first set or Parelli's DVD's. My first reaction, to his wife's story, was that I had never been afraid that one of my horses would kill me, and I started out with a just gelded, 3 wks of training 5 year old Anglo-Arab, and I was GREEN, if anything greener than my horse. I just did not torture my horse by trying to ride way above my riding level.
My second reaction was two fold--first why pick up the opposite hoof under the horse--it struck me as quite uncomfortable to the horse and unsafe for me because I have MS. The second, was with the flipping of the lead rope to get the horse to back up. First of all I saw (on the DVD) an Arab quite willing to cooperate if the lady would just explain what she wanted the horse to do! My second thought is that the formidable hunt seat women who first taught me to ride considered that (flipping the lead rope) as something to be reserved ONLY for if the horse was attacking you, and if I had used this method as a regular course I would have been told to quit, or leave. I am afraid that after that I just could not stand watching the DVD's any more.
I am sure that many people successfully use these methods to train their horses. I am a much quieter trainer. I do not think that I can train for friendship, I consider this something I have to earn. I do not play games with my horse on the ground, because I try to make being ridden so enjoyable to the horse that he considers being ridden as play time with me.
All horses handled by humans need training, both on the ground and under saddle (or in harness.) I consider Parelli's Natural Horsemanship just one of the hundreds of effective training systems developed over the past 4,000 years. In my lifetime people (including me) have been training horses to be quiet, calm and cooperative for decades before Natural Horsemanship appeared. It is A method of training horses and it is not the only humane system around.
Hi Jackie... Good for you riding and having horses when you have M.S... You inspire me.... I'm afraid I am confused and I don't want to be any more confused than I wake up every morning..... you like Parelli, or you decided not to watch the tapes?

Hi Anneke: I learned that "defining my space" was where I needed to start with my young mustang.... as soon as I effectively pushed him away, we got closer.... in the sense that our trust built....

"it's all about moving the feet" is my learning experience.. they all say it.... Oliver and I are doing really great with a whip that is straight with a bag on the end... nobody teaches like that, LOL.. but for me and the Oman, it is all that has every worked.... I don't twirl a rope to good and I admit it...

And Linda Kohovanov wrote The Tale of the Equues.... and it is a snoozer book, that is a must read... in other words, it is hard to get through but she is so right on.. I might have to pick it up again.... I know that I am learning how to talk to my horses and give them mental pics of what I want and we are clicking even more... :)
Hi Jennifer,
It's not really about if I like or dislike Parelli. It is just that I was raised on the standards of Northern Virginia hunt-seat horsemanship, very, very English and "proper". It took me a long time to realize that there are other equally valid ways to operate around horses, and have recently learned stuff, important stuff, from western trainers, and have learned to admire Saddlebreds.

I sometimes think that there are as many schools of horsemanship as there are horsemen.
I ride forward seat, and I handle horses according to the practices of English hunt-seat horsemen. These systems have served me well. My most influential human teacher would yell at me ANYTIME SHE SAW ME IRRITATE MY HORSE. I saw horse irritation, puzzlement and bewilderment on the DVD. I saw the beginners not ceasing the aid immediately as the horse starts to respond correctly, and not being corrected for it. I was also suffering from heat sickness, and could not spare the energy to try and digest the whole thing. So I felt depressed watching it and stopped.

I admit that I may have misinterpreted what I saw, and I really, really admire all you people who are trying to do the best for your horses. At least I read about human-equine relationships that equal what I had with my first horse, ridden Forward Seat, handled English hunt-seat, both on the ground and under saddle. Each of you will end up with your own schools of Natural Horsemanship just as I have developed my own system of Forward Seat Riding.

Go for it, enjoy your wonderful relationships with your horses. These relationships are gifts beyond compare.
Whoa, I just learned something from you:) The next time I watch Parelli I am going to see if I see what you saw.... irritation of the horse.... I get that....

I like to tell my horses, "thanks guys, you've put up with me enough for one day"... I am thoroughly convinced that I bug them, though I'm trying not to.... I am a master at relieving pressure but a wimp at putting it on..... not good either. :)

I really learned that alot of this is about working on me... horses are horses, they know how to be already.... I am trying to learn their language. :)
If you know what you are looking at you will see a lot more than irritation! :-) Watch out for swishing tails and angry ears, high heads and the like. 'Horses Don't Lie'!!!
I have a real issue with the boxed nature of NH. There is no one size fits all training plan. Common sense, patience and feel are all free. I don't think following a rigid plan of exercises is really a factor in successful training. If you let go of the need to quantify successes and measure progress, you can slow down and listen to what the horse is telling you. Take small steps and don't expect too much. If you get in a tight, back up and work on something you both can do and enjoy. When they know you're trying, most horses can be mighty forgiving.
As Jennifer's tale illustrated, if you're afraid of your horse you need a trainer, not a boxed set of DVDs.
Jennifer, some days I just find a grassy spot and sit with my horses while they graze. On those days, I ask them to do nothing. I think it goes a long way to making them feel valued, not used.
Jackie, I hate the lead line shaking. It's just plain rude. It takes a little more time, but it's a lot nicer to get a horse to move based on a gesture or a word que.
I love to hang out with my horses... but Oliver is still a tester..... his backup is not great, he is a little overfriendly and overfamiliar because of his orphanness...... I kinda thought the lead rope shaking was okay.:( now I feel bad if I'm being rude... I have so much to learn..... I better live a long time, LOL.

I just happened to watch parelli last night and they were asking the horse to lead..... Linda had a long stick and she was teaching her student to hit the big ball as if it were her horse, tap tap tap on the chest. I have seen a horse backed up a zillion ways.... Oliver basically responds to none of it... he does not want to back up.... I have to roundpen him to get any distance. :) the swinging the rope and looking at his body to back him up used to make him rear too.... Chris, I'm coming to watch a video, hopefully on backup:)
.....I agree...it's nice to be nice...but really look at the size of them...You have to talk to them in their own language...and horses can be very violent at times with each other....but like us humans so can we..and we know that just gets more violence..so talk their own language..when they understand what you are communicating..."Shouting" is NOt necessary.....I don't speak French...screamimg at me in French is not going to make me undersand it any better...add violence and you will get the same response....
Chris Irwin's method involves US learning THEIR language.....and it sure ain't touchy feely....but it IS respect clear communication and absolutely being in charge or what is it We are going to do...MOST horses are followers and happy to let you lead IF you tell the truth,are reliably consistent, and can be trusted.....a rare few are LEADERS....they can be a little trickier....but once they see you have their safety and welfare at heart..with dignity...they WILL ALLOW you to pilot them......So...Chris's way ,in my humble opinion, is the way to go......
He is also very down to earth and approachable.........He's dvd's are very complete....in fact info over load...it will take many watchings to get it all in your head.....but once you DO get it...WOW...My Ziggy says..Well it's about time you got it !!! And I say to him...Did you watch the dvd too ????? No...I finally speak my Ziggy's language......Try Chris Irwin...you will not be sorry.....
I absolutely second this. There is so much more to it than trying to make the horse do what you want! ;-D

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