Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Fiona Hill on September 9, 2009 at 4:03am

Interesting that you say Chris Irwin has helped most with yourself. I would totally agree with that. He doesn't just train horses!

Thanks for the advice on getting a Masters degree by the way. I should be doing my assignments right now but I keep getting distracted by more interesting things. I will go away immediately and write some more! :-)

Before I go - I hadn't heard of Ponyboy til I came on here, so I watched a video of him on youtube the other day roundpenning a horse and I didn't much like what I saw. I'm sure he may have other talents, but he was driving the horse forward while his core was ahead of it (effectively telling it to stop) and the horse was far from happy. Like most people do, sadly.

Permalink Reply by Shirley on September 8, 2009 at 3:14pm

I hope you all will continue to remind me whenever it's needed to 'keep a bit of humour'.
I tried to use the motto, "Life's to short to worry about the little stuff...eat a cookie" But after while that got to be a worry in itself....I now have a small little problem with being diabetic.
The beginning of next month I'm headed from Michigan to Florida to attend a Parelli Celebration. Look out BarnmiceI I will be revived with enthusiasm. LOL! And the end of this month I'm going to a clinic by Dennis Reis. He also sells lots of his branded items as do most well known clinicians here in the US.. It's not their fault we tend to be too into 'things' here. But as I say that I don't think Pat was nearly as commercial before he got with his now wife Linda who is from Australia...so at least it's not a national division.. Dennis is kinda a hoot but horses do seem to respond well to his methods.
We are having a little celebration (not Parelli celebration) at my boarding stable tonight. Pie and Wine! Should be fun with lots of laughing. If I don't pass out from too much sugar! I'll just have to go for brief rides in between nips and sips.
Cheers to all! Shirley

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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on September 8, 2009 at 3:32pm

Horses like it when you smile and have true and authentic feelings of joy around them. :) so yeah, find the humor in it..... I'm sure they want us to be all serious all the time and strung out and uptight.... that's why I like to consider playing... only because I want that free energy of letting go and enjoying myself and moving my feet around. :) and my horses...

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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on September 9, 2009 at 12:01pm

Okay, so maybe you guys can help with this!! my horse Oliver..... he is frisky on a line... and pulls right away the opposite side.... and he thinks he is hilarious or he is afraid of me, I can't figure out which..... but i can't deal with the pulling on my arm..... so how would you correct this.

The visual is that he's at the end of the line.... and I am moving him to my left but he spins around, has the rope going across the left hand side of his neck and begins pulling back to the right... creating tension in the line and making me have to let go.... I have an idea of what I am going to try, but I was wondering what you would do. ")

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Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on September 9, 2009 at 1:31pm

Some questions:
Are you in a round pen, arena, or are you lunging in the open?
Do you have a proper lunge cavesson (it has three metal plates hinged on a padded noseband)?
Does he spin around just to one side or does he just do it going both ways around the ring?
When he spins is his head going toward the center of the ring (turn on the haunches) or are his haunches going to the center of the ring (turn on the forehand)?
Did he just begin this?
Do you have unusual weakness in your arm(s)?

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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on September 9, 2009 at 7:36pm

wow, good questions.....

Oliver and I are in a medium sized arena or walking in the back of my property, usually not in the open.
I have a clinton anderson four nose halter and lead rope, and lunge line.
He spins away from me. away from the center of the arena.
No, he has always done this, every time I try... so I've tried tons of other things to help us get past this and I want to try again, but I do not want to fail.
Yes, I am unusually weak, LOL... everywhere.... and wimpy physically. :) and he's already jerked out all my body parts.... :)

Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on September 9, 2009 at 8:16pm

Hey Jennifer, it doesn't go further with reply, hope you find this.
I can feel for you, I am very weak myself. So weak that I know that I can no longer train on the ground. If I ever get a new untrained horse he's going to the trainer because I know I am not strong enough to keep the necessary control.
You really need a professional trainer to work on lunging because your horse right now has your number. You already know that the gear you are using IS NOT CONTROLLING THE HORSE. I know you ride western, but I suggest finding a hunt seat or dressage trainer and have them train your horse just for lunging for a month, using a proper lunging cavesson with hinged metal nose plates. You can get one made of nylon, but get one with the hinged nose plates or you will have no controll, just like you have no control now.
Every once in a while a horse may need to be overfaced. When we work with a horse we put up this illusion that we are stronger than the horse. If they forget that we are stronger we have to set things up so we can remind them. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT BEATING, but right now your horse sounds like he needs a trainer that will get his full attention and convince him that people are stronger. Then you will have a chance, but while your horse is being trained GET LUNGING LESSONS. It is a skill and an art, and it is not easy to learn from a book or video, and it would pay off big in the long run if you learn to do it properly. And I would not lunge in your present halter again, he knows you can't control him with it.
I have been through similar frustrations back when I was stronger, and back then I was strong enough to get my point across. It took a lot of running around, and using the lunge rein at exactly the right moment at exactly the right angle. Eventually even the most difficult ones cooperated, but I would not have succeeded without my wonderful lunging cavesson with the nose plates.
Good luck, may fortune shine upon you.
P.S. If the trainer decides he needs side reins I would do it, AFTER he has been trained in them. There is no shame in this, most dressage trainers use them.

Permalink Reply by Carol Pullum on September 9, 2009 at 3:39pm

I always worked my young horses with a regular bridle(snaffle), harness, and two lines(such as for driving), this way you have a line attached to both sides of the horses face, the setup is much like you are riding and you have full control. You need a special harness with rings for this setup, I think it's called a surcingle, you thread the lines through the rings so the action on the bridle is the same as if a rider is on board. I had great results using this method, I ground started all my babies this way.(You can do this in a lunge ring at all speeds).

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Permalink Reply by Chris Gloin on September 9, 2009 at 5:14pm

You need much patient to teach a horse to lunge properly - the end of the line might be too much for him - try shortening the line, and don't tolerate any behaviour that involves jerking your arm, running out or twisting around. if it happens - stop immediately redirect in the direction you want, and use your body and the lunge whip to direct where you want him to go. The horse has to learn to respond to all the verbal commands as well and body language - start with walk, stop - LOTS and LOTs of Praise when you suceed, then stop lunging. The reward is you stopping work. short sessions and only proceed to the next step when he is calm and comfortable. you can't lunge a wired horse - so if he is hyper he may need free time before a lunging lesson. I would not let him get away with that behaviour - take him right back to the beginning with a long lead rope waling around you and go from there. Not out on the long line until his behaviour is better. Since he is an orphan - consider turning him out with some very dominant mares - they will quickly teach him how to behave in a herd - and you are going to have to teach him as well by being a "dominant mare". In fact - I would start with walk stop with the appropriate verbal and body language commands just on a lead line before attempting any circle work on a long line. Lots and lots and lots of repetition.

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on September 9, 2009 at 7:38pm

wow, well, my trainer did all that with him, I wish I didn't have to... I know what you are saying..... I totally get it... :) I'm honestly not sure i can.... :( I don't even have any of that stuff nor the skill to try it... but I've seen steve and oliver do it and the horse knows how.... :)

Permalink Reply by Shirley on September 9, 2009 at 6:24pm

You probably know this but don't let him do this as much as you have any control. (Sort of silly statement since I'm sure you don't WANT to let him keep doing this) Don't just keep doing the same thing over and over, thinking he will 'get it'. I think all he'll 'get' is the knowledge that he's bigger and stronger then you and that would be very bad, it will carry over into all you do.
If you have some of the items others are talking about then maybe that's what you should do. I don't claim to know. If you want to try with a halter, a rope halter has much more control then a leather or nylon 1" type. It has a little bit of a bite but not as nasty as a chain.
Do you have any experience yourself or with watching someone else get a beginner going?
Another thing you can do is a step in between which is just having them on a lead line and only have him circle you about as far out as you can touch him with a crop type whip and you can have them walk out by resting your crop or stick on their back and tapping it on the middle of their back, should make them move forward. As soon as you see him start to think about doing it...praise him. If you start to get mad. Take a break. Don't get angry as that gives him a one -up on you too. He'll know he's getting to you. Sometimes when Cash is in an excitable mood or I haven't been able to work him alot (Like after my resent fall) he'll get cocky and try to run off. He can with a regular halter on. He can not with his rope halter on. So there I go, trying to get you to buy something BUT it'll cost much less then the others options Heck you might even be able to make one? You can buy them most anywhere. But don't leave it on him in his pasture or stall cause it won't break if he does get caught up.
I'm curious to see the variety of ideas you receive on this and then what works for you. Hang in there, some babies take longer to learn then others. Do you think he's being naughty or scared? I've seen videos that teach you lots of hints as to how to read reasons in a horse and it was very helpful for those of us that don't have years of experience behind us.
I used to be able to rent some of this stuff at one of my local tack shops but they no longer do that and it's really a shame.
What did Steve suggest???????????
Did you find the Chris Irwin tapes on the Internet for free???????? I'll help you find it if you weren't' able to find them. I don't know if they cover this issue. You do know not to get in front of his shoulder, right? Easy to forget when learning. Are you using a bag when you do this to get him moving?
If he starts running back toward you, you are in trouble.! Very dangerous stuff!! Then you'll have to send him to Geoffrey in Australia for help. LOL!
How much time a day are you able to spend with Oliver?
My current riding instructor's horse's name is Oliver too. A 'real life' in person help that can tell me when I'm not doing it right...the fine tuning that's hard to see on myself even when I know 'what' I'm suppose to do. So does that make me a Parelli Pagan-ette? LOL
I'm open to all ideas but his so far have helped me the most. Somehow my 'real-- right there with me' encourages me to be braver on Cash which has been our biggest drawback in progressing.
YOU BE CAREFUL! That's the mom in me speaking. But, really! be safe !!!!
Shirley

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Permalink Reply by Shirley on September 9, 2009 at 6:44pm

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/
There is an article here about in-hand beginning. Might be helpful to read. I will read later but I'm headed out to spend some quality TIME with Cash!

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