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Am I Just Too Old Fashioned?
I am beginning to wonder about horsemen and horsewomen insisting on "playing" with their horses.
When I started out riding, people did not play with their horses. It was heavily discouraged because it ENCOURAGES DISRESPECT. If you wanted to get your horse fit, you WORKED him properly, schooling him in a well thought out program.
If all a horse does around you is play he starts thinking that he does not have to work at all unless he feels like it.
You have to TRAIN a horse to obey you.
Am I just an old fashioned fuddy-duddy?
When I started out riding, people did not play with their horses. It was heavily discouraged because it ENCOURAGES DISRESPECT. If you wanted to get your horse fit, you WORKED him properly, schooling him in a well thought out program.
If all a horse does around you is play he starts thinking that he does not have to work at all unless he feels like it.
You have to TRAIN a horse to obey you.
Am I just an old fashioned fuddy-duddy?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Geoffrey Pannell on
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Sorry Jen , disregard my previous post . I got the wrong end of the stick, when you said colt all the alarm bells went off . If you trust your trainer do what he says and how he does it, other wise your throwing that money in the bin . Oliver will be confused also if your not following the same methods. Cheers Geoffrey.
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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on
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Thanks Geoffrey.... he is a little confused, but he's like with his dad half time and his mom half time... sometimes it's been said that Steve and I together are okay. I can't train like a 220 pound black man.... :) but most of the stuff steve says to do I do try to comply with. :) Have a good day with your horses too... Jen
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Permalink Reply by Shirley on
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Well, Where did everything get so confused?! Encluding me!!!!!
this is pretty crazy.....
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Permalink Reply by Fiona Hill on
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Wow!
I've been away for a day and when I come back it seems like I've missed a heck of a lot! So forgive me, but it took me awhile to untangle all the replies! :-) Wasn't quite sure where to put mine, but here seemed as good a place as any.
Jennifer - I have a few things to share that I hope will help you to feel better about this whole thing.... Deep breath ....:-)... (Trouble is when you ask for advice you often get it - he he!)
Okay here goes....
Turning the quarters towards you is a rude gesture ....The horse equivalent of saying 'kiss my ass'. HOWEVER, If your horse is turning and strongly pulling away from you on the line and turning his quarters in towards you it might be that you are causing it, or it might not. Don't automatically assume that it is your fault. However, if you are inadvertently sending pushing energy to his head with your core (with your belly button aiming at his head) while you are also pushing his hind end forward, this is a very confusing message and he will flip round and turn his quarters in, doing what you effectively just asked him to do.
OR, it might be as subtle as the angle of your body when you are lunging him. You may not be pushing him, but you may be blocking with your left shoulder or hip. Your left side of your body needs to bend away from his head and remain 'open' to allow him to move into the space you are creating. If he only does it going one way, then this may well be the case.
Some horses are more sensitive to this than others and some will simply brace and turn their noses to the outside while continuing on round the circle (and then people try to correct them with sidereins). Others will spin or pull away and say - I am NOT playing this game any more!
Alternatively, he may simply be saying 'make me' and being rude. If he just stands there and turns his backside to you refusing to move, then this may well be the case, unless he is so sensitive that he doesn't want to come back into a situation where he might be pushed into a block again. If you can be sure that you fixed the possible cause in your own body and he still does it then this is probably the case! In which case the advice you received about needing to get tougher with him may well apply. There's too much to go into here about how you might do that!
Chris Irwin does have a DVD about lungeing that would definitely help you to work out what is going on - and I have used it a LOT with my own horse. If you can't access his DVDs I strongly advise that you look on his website for 'articles' by Chris and Kathryn. They have written a lot of articles that you can download and I guarantee that you will find several that would help you with this. If you have a camcorder or even a camera, ask Steve to video or photograph you so you can see what is happening after the event, when the emotions have died down. That can really help. Sometimes in the moment you are sure you doing it right and it still doesn't work, but having a look afterwards, you can see that your angle was just out or your core got ahead of the horse for just a split second but it was enough to cause a turn.
When I first started on this 'journey' I used to personalise everything that went on between me and Ben, blaming myself for not being perfect, wishing I could be so much braver, bigger, tougher or whatever, searching endlessly for the skills and answers to make it all alright for him and focusing on the story that went with his situation as a way to explain why it was as it was. But, Jennifer, whatever happens don't beat yourself up. It IS a journey and sometimes the outcome is not what we expect it to be. Chris Irwin says it isn't where your horse goes that matters, just how your horse goes - and this applies to ourselves as well. Be kind to yourself.
In an earlier post you mentioned that you weren't sure how to tell if your horse is scared or not. The way is to read his body language, especially the head and tail as they work together.
- If his tail is clamped tight against his dock and his head is high then he is afraid.
- If his tail is clamped and his head is low, then he is pouty and not happy and that is NOT the time to get tough with him or you will frighten him.
- If his tail is curled and relaxed but his head is high and braced, then he is stoically defiant ('make me' mode).
- If his tail is relaxed and curled and his head is low to level then he is relaxed and calm.
- If his tail is pointed at 45 degrees to the ground, straight out, then that is 'suspicion', which means he is wary but amenable to persuasion.
- We've all seen the horse with a high head and a vertical tail - that is playtime, 'game on'!
- A horse with a swishing tail is annoyed or irritated (they often point the swish in the direction of the thing that is bugging them) and a wringing tail is anger. A wringing tail and a twirling high head means that you should seriously consider getting out of the way coz that boy is pissed off bigtime!
When I first met Chris Irwin I asked him all sorts of questions about why my horse did what he did like gallop off pulling the rope through my hand, or freak out when I put his rug on, or took a saddle near him - things that no-one else had ever managed to explain to my satisfaction. I think I knew in my heart of hearts that he was afraid of me but I didn't want to admit it. When Chris finally said it, I was so upset. My whole aim with that horse was to be his friend, his rescuer, the one to gallop off into the sunset with him and to hear that he was actually afraid of me and at times angry with me, was a huge blow! I was always kind and gentle with him - how could he be afraid? In fact it was my gentleness that was part of the problem, because he never truly trusted me to take care of him. This is still the case. However, what I have since learned is that I have the power to change only my own part of that dynamic. My horse is choosing, for whatever reason to stay stuck in his fear (that didn't come from me originally) - and it absolutely isn't personal.
I'm not saying for one minute that this is your experience, or that anything is wrong with your relationship with Oliver - it sounds very very different to mine. The point I'm making is that it isn't personal. Horses are here to do their horsey thing just like we are here to do our human thing.
I really hope this helps.
Wishing you much joy and pleasure on your 'journey'! x
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Fiona, thank you so much for taking the time to care.... this thread has really enlightened me to the super big hearts of people that want to help people with horses.... I am overwhelmed with your generosity as well as the other participants here.
Chris was the only one that explained not to look at Olivers head when lunging so he wouldn't run me over... :) I watched oodles and oodles of other advice and that was a huge lightbulb too. As is all of your body language tips. I should copy them and take them in the arena with me.... :)
this horse of mine, he does not generally turn a butt.... he blocks with his head. :)
I am just super encouraged and willing to keep trying and I have something to tell you about what you said.... thank you for telling me not to take things personal.... or to fault myself and to be kind to myself... I finally started that about a year ago when I decided Oliver is my horse and that is that and I'll just have to help him be my horse.... but what I do have a tendency to do is not to go at him when there is a HUGE possibility that I am asking him wrong. In other words, I am willing to see my part in it and give both my horses the benefit of the doubt. ... I get the feeling he'd bake me a cake if I just knew how to ask.... but with Oliver, if I ask nice when moving him around, he just blows me off. He is the type of horse that seems to make me make him so that he can be assured that I can handle it.... he immediately gets comforted by useful discipline.... so i do make him go here and there like Chris says, even if it's not even a whole complete circle around.... and wait for him to lick and chew... :) he gets happier the more he is in check.... I learned that from Chris. I love the free videos and I watch one a day at work.... the only thing I notice about alot of roundpenned horses is they seem to naturally go around the pen and do circles... where Oliver would be eating the microphone if someone were talking in the middle, or taking your hat...... you have to push him away first to get started. :) all of which one baby step at a time, I've managed to get IN the arena with him instead of being on the outside:)
I appreciate the fact that you say this is a journey.... because I am going really slow.... and for some people in my real life, they can't handle it.... they call me boring or my horse stupid or dangerous because we are working it out.... so as a person with horses for five years and a 4 year old horse, Oliver could be alot worse off if not for the kind words and helpful gestures of people I have met on line... thank you Fiona for helping us.... your words will come with us the next time we try this move....
In my heart, I think he is playfully afraid and testing that I can handle him on a line.... and he knows that I am unsure too..... the only time he ever truly came at me and charged me was when I was looking at his head and asking for forward movement....
This place, this forum, and with Chris Irwin's videos is where Oliver and I need to be for this leg of our journey.... it is all in the body language and attitude and that is gonna get us to the next level.
:) If I can help you with anything, please ask.... :) Jen
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You are very welcome! And yes, I've been called those things by other people - although mostly it's been my horse that has been the brunt of other people's snide remarks.
Your horse is still a youngster and he's testing the boundaries. Being an orphan it sounds like he's had a different start in life to most horses, but that doesn't mean it's been better or worse.
He sounds quite confident in some ways and a bit like a teenager - needs his mom one minute then really mad at her the next! Mine is a 13 year old and he's still testing the boundaries! They never stop testing us!
Stick with it :-)
Fiona.
PS - Good news is I just finished another of my Masters assignments today! Yippee!!
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Whew, I'm glad you too are connecting on this and helping Oliver & Jen.
I'm still gonna butt out of suggestions for now since I don't want to offend Jen any more due to mis-understanding the situations. Really difficult when on-line and can't really clearly see. BUT!!!!! I will still follow and be rooting for you guys. Maybe when you are done with Oliver.....you can go get a dozen more mustangs from the current unnecessary round-ups....EVEN CLOUDS HERD! .Makes me soooo angry!
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I wrote you a note,did you see it????? :) Thanks for rooting for us... I am gonna read all your notes and stay in the "game" with your suggestions.... :)
If I win the lottery, which shoot, what is taking so long... I will just get a huge piece of land and get some mustangs, yep I will... but maybe I'll have to leave them wild... training them all might just wear me out. :)
Jen
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You guys.... has anyone ever spent oodles and oodles of money on a trainer? I sometimes feel like I should just give the horse to him. Thanks for all the good advice, but.... this thread is not going the way I envisioned... and it's Jackies thread so I'm not going to come on anymore. :) I wish i wasn't a weak person, but hay, it is what it is... maybe Oliver won't work for me, who knows... but I am not going to go on here and feel like crap about myself and my horse... as much as I know you guys care, and are trying to help, I've been here many many times before with the advice columns. Right now the horse is being ridden 4 times a week on the trails by a professional who thinks I can ride him whenever I want.... so, again, confusion... This horse has never hurt me..... we are working on a relationship. He is 4 years old... it might not happen right this minute.... but it will happen. I'm sorry if I said something that lead people to the wrong conclusion.... but the wall that is in my face right now, as far as the advice that I am getting, I've been here many many times before. :) You guys don't know me and my 4 year history, so it is no fault of ya alls that you are starting in the moment and giving very pertinent advice... but I've done most of what has been suggested already, I promise.... Ya all have a nice day.... and thank you very very much for caring about me and Oliver...
I really wanted to know a simple answer to a simple question of what to do when he spins and sort of runs off???? I thought that would be an interesting way to get into a discussion. Somehow my discussions about Oliver always go this way.... I need more technical advice I guess. Please do not think that I don't appreciate you guys. I think I just talk to much and people get the wrong idea or make assumptions.... and I get tired of re explaining... I apologize. Jen
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Wow, I'm butting out of this!!!! Sorry if I offended you in any way with my misunderstanding of the situation.
I wish you the very best and will continue to listen to your progress but will do my best to restrain from commenting.
Enjoy the "JOURNEY"!
Shirley
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Honey, I love your comments.. I am counting on them... come back.. you do not have to butt out... I was just bringing everyone to the same page..... I'm sorry if you got my words as criticism... I didn't mean for them to be.... :) Shirley, where are you??????
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I'm in mid Michigan....and soon to be at the barn...hopefully for a ride. You are in remote California right? Or am I confused?
And did we ever need to all be brought to the same page! Did all this confusion get going from the word colt? I'd have never have thought he was a stallion from the use of the word colt. Oh well! Never mind~~ let's not go backwards! I'm very glad you are feeling okay about things. Back to your journey!! I'm sure I won't be able to be silent for long. It's not in my make-up. LOL
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