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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on September 12, 2009 at 12:29pm

I think that is the totally right attitude Fiona.... I have a business mentor and he told us a few years ago... whatever time you gave yourself in this life, add 15 years to it... so geez, I guess I'll be about 90 when I die... I can learn to lunge by then, little bit at a time..

I knew when I was working with Oliver the first time, he was about 2 and I was trying to lunge him and he reared the heck UP.... that it was me... another young horse I tried to lunge did that too a year before. I can't believe one of my neighbors, could be at the Pool Party, LOL... said, "come on over and lunge chanti... she is so nice" I knew Jack.... as in nothing, for those of you who don't have an L.A. accent, and the horse reared... I was thinking right then, this is not easy...

So my first trainer got me a 22 year old horse who just is experienced and can't move as fast is probably what it is... Toby.... he has so many of his own issues... but I will tell you something Fiona. I am not confident enough to get on any horse that I don't personally know.... like the Oliver, Steve rearing thing.... only with my horse might I be able to chuckle and get his feet back on the ground... and that is because I have practiced being around him..... for hours and hours.... Steve told me the last time I lunged him... You do not trust your horse and he knows it... Geez, he runs straight at me but okay.... he rears up like Chanti did, but okay... and I spent the last 6 months, I think, just me and Toby and Oliver ;and Steve comes and puts the miles on him... I think that is a cool program for now.. The previous year, I rode Toby and Steve rode Oliver and we went on at least 80 rides that year between lessons and trail rides. :) Ponyboy has a chapter in one of his books, Horse Follow Closely where he says to just spend time with the horse..... and I think I still am in that chapter....

I also read some Mark Rashid books about being the passive leader... i tend to be real calm person, but not necessarily around horses, just because I had never been around them before... like I didn't know they bit each other and got in scrapes and stuff, I knew Jack.... the first year or two I was happy they didn't colic and fall over dead. Happy I could clean out Toby's feet, take his temperature, brush him, stuff like that. I was like the 4H girl... even now, I've had Toby 5 years.... I'm confident in that stuff..... but geez man, not alot of other stuff.. like people shouldn't start with the roundpenning tapes when they've never even been around a horse.... i almost got really hurt, the horse chanti ran away, from a public arena at the barn and went running all around with people there.... and I'm like "oh, wow, horses do that?" duh. So I do not trust anyone around me..... to say, "Hey Jennifer do this... " I mean I wish I was 7 and I could feel brave enough to do all that but I'm not.... I want to be that kid that just is calm, confident, fun, but so far I am only like that with Steve.... like he teaches me to laugh, be calm, breathe, think clearly, ride loosely if i can, but get the horse collected.... but I think this time I'm spending with the horses on my own is real necessary... when I can tell him, Okay Steve, me and Oliver are moving forward, watch what I can do, let's go for some riding lessons on him now, Oliver will be 5 going on 6.... or 7 who cares.... I'd rather not break him either, or over do it.. he has to last me a long time. My vision is really to ride in about 10 years when I retire and go camping and stuff and have him in a trailer and be a good driver myself with a rig, and all that is gonna take time cuz I work now. :) I'm a city dweller with a horse... whatcha gonna do?

My philosophy is this.... if a horse will move away from a fly..... or a drop of water, then it doesn't have to be that hard.... they are sensitive, if they understand they will respond to energy. I think when Oliver and I understand each other a whole lot more, that energy will be like it is with me and Toby now... it just takes time. :) I do not intend to go to the thumbs up emergency room.... I think it's cool that you went and survived though. I bet that hurt whatever it was. yikes.

I love reading your stories you guys, all of you.... :) this is a really good thread I think. :) Thanks Jackie.

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Permalink Reply by Ferrous on September 13, 2009 at 10:10pm

"I do not intend to go to the thumbs up emergency room"
Good decision, Jennifer! ;) It certainly wasn't a "woohoo, cool" thumbs up, it was a "thank goodness we don't have severe injuries and so we will get to go home tonight" thumbs up.

I didn't intend to end up there either, but sometimes life has a way of giving us 'gifts' that we really didn't want! ;) While it was a good learning experience, I have learned the lessons well and hope not to repeat the experience. *crosses fingers*

So, to recap the lessons that I learned:
1. When your horse or your own body tells you that it is time to end the ride, LISTEN! Even 'another minute' is enough time for everything to fall apart when either one of you is no longer 'into the ride'. In general you should listen to your instincts, they are usually right.

2. There is no such thing as a 'bombproof' horse. The mare that I was riding is a quiet, seasoned, so-called 'bombproof' horse. She is a great horse, but ANY horse can be startled and react 'intensely'. I am a pretty confident person, but if something unexpected occurs that startles me, I jump... for a prey animal like a horse, the startle reflex is even bigger. Always be alert.

3. Horses can accelerate really, really fast. Maybe they should be rated like cars. ;) When you are looking at a horse, the owner should state "this horse can accelerate from 'a' to 'b' in 'x' ms" (yes, milliseconds... they are that fast!). They should also be rated for deceleration (especially for jumpers who may experience rapid deceleration at a fence). ;)

4. WOW! The ground... and arena walls, and other solid objects... are hard! Ouch!

5. Stuff happens... the best way to regain confidence after a good scare (which being thrown is) really is to 'get back on the horse' (once sufficiently healed of course).

Horses are awesome teachers. They are great at teaching us what we need to learn... even if sometimes we would prefer not to learn the lesson, at least not in the manner that they choose to teach it! *lol*

Permalink Reply by Shirley on September 12, 2009 at 10:53am

I think that is really cool! Goes to show how much 'we' and our 'reactions' affect our horses behavior. Horses are just soooo cool!
I think I've mentioned before that Cash is very athletic. Last night when I was preparing for a ride I took him in the arena to do my little 'games/warm-ups with him. When I had him go out for a short lunging he started out fine and then it was if he could not handle all his adrenalin surging thru his body and he took off with the bucking and farting and twisting and kicking which at first concerned me. I stopped him. He started out again and away he went but he wasn't trying to get away or pulling on the lunge line he just wanted to RUN. I made the decision it was something he needed to do. I couldn't believe how long he went and I still had to stop him. When I sent him out again away he went! He ended up sweating from head to heel. I have never seen him so wet! Then I had him do our regular stuff to cool down and he had a good attitude. Then I rode him. Had to give him a tap on his rear for doing what he wanted to do and ignoring me but then he was a very good boy and still had plenty of "GO" He gets very little pelleted grain in the summer but I'm wondering if I should just be giving him a handful rather then a cupful (that's twice a day). His pasture is just for nibbling as it's pretty short but he gets lots of hay and I graze him where there is lots of grass and clover/lawn a few hours each week. He's not fat but I do not want him to get any heavier and then have to try to get the weight off. He got a good shower after burning all this energy...which he's starting to really like this summer and I shampooed his mane and tail.
My husband had brought the video camera and got all of this on tape so I watched that twice last night before bed....never enough horse time.
I think it is neat how many of us are so intent on being really good horse people. It seems to be mostly women but there are a few men. Even though it is a hobby, it is also a passion and we each want to be 'keen' observers and learn all there is to learn for our horse...a real partner.
I do wish people would stop making negative remarks or usually sarcastic remarks about this "Natural Horsemanship" thing no matter who the clinician is.
So often the things said are not even based on the truth but on an erroneous assumption. Many of them offer so much information about reading a horse and how to deal with situations differently by 'why' the horse is doing what it's doing. Is it fear or aggression. A person with years of horse experience 'might?" already know these things but for us that have been in it less hours, days, and weeks it is very helpful. These people make money cause they bothered to invest in putting these insights & sometimes commonly known ideas into forms that are helping less experienced people know more and be better horse-people. I strongly believe if they weren't helping horses and man (Horsemanship) they would not be making the big bucks that they are. Fortunately those that are helping others are being recognized in many different ways by many different people and organizations. And winning training competitions. I'm sure they couldn't care less about the rest that have a need to cut them down.
Someone (I have no idea who) was complaining about how people dress at these gatherings/clinics. I just don't get it! People wear street clothes, cowboy attire, paddock boots what ever makes them feel good that day. There is sometimes a festive atmosphere. That is what like minded people do when they get together to share their interest and have a good time. Look at the attire of many who go to the big races. huge hats included.
Oh, I'm sure venting this morning...it's just really sad how people react to what they don't even really know. But this space is for voicing our feelings. But I do think people need to respect this is a public forum and they are affecting reputations.
I could go on and on but instead I'm gonna go ride and spend some time with my guy. I wonder if he's sore from all his voluntary energy burning yesterday. My electric bill would sure be reduced if we could bottle that energy.! And I ride this thing???? What am I thinkin?!
Keep Horsen Around and don't let the negative energy out there cause you to waste perfectly good energy! That is a big challenge for me. I'm workin on it!
To each his own and leave em alone........unless they are harming another.
Shirley

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Permalink Reply by Over Fences on September 13, 2009 at 2:55pm

Hi Shirley, Cheer up! I thought we cleared this up the other day . Sometimes my writing reads more self righteous than I mean it to. Remember? Youre talking about the same post right?

If putting words in quotations makes it look like I'm mocking, then I'll stop.
I use " " too much anyway. But I dont generally use " " as sarcasm

If I felt I should take back anything in that post, or If it was rude, I would delete it, but I stand by my comments because they were perfectly honest and respectful. That's what this discussion is about. That's why you joined it right? So you could say what you wanted.

I have expressed in all kinds of forms my respect for Parelli as a professional and a Businessman, I am not one of those who tinks if he's getting too rich he must not be any good. Get Money!!! I say

I only want to call a longe whip a longe whip. (and leave it black) but to each his own.

Truthfully, I dont care what color peoples whips are, My real and only point is that marketing an existing product as new product seems to be the basic jist of the clinic. I would go to another, I enjoy anything horsey.
I just interpret Parelli more like a show, like the Viennese Riding School or Cavalia

This is my experience as an individual as compared to other events I've attended.

He's a fine horseman but not the kind of Instruction and or Clinician I prefer, I had all the time in the world to learn my own Natural Horsemanship growing up on horses, I figured it all out, on my own and I think that's what true Natural Horsemanship is, YOUR OWN INNATE ABILITY TO RIDE AND TRAIN.

In my adult life I've just wanted to catch up and learn all things CLASSICAL, so naturally I may seem overly opposed to the modern ways. I never mean to hurt anyones feelings.

I was'nt complaining about the clothes they wear, I was simply stating that the crowds that go to these events are obviously repeat guests, because they already own alot of the merchandise available there.

Again I dont care what people wear, just an observation. I ride with several Devout Parelli fanatics, and I can also say that they are deeply connected to their horses, theyve created more affectionate individual relationships with their horses.

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Permalink Reply by Shirley on September 14, 2009 at 1:50pm

Um, no, I didn't mean to talk about any one post or any one persons opinions. If you said several things that I was mentioning, I really did not realize it.

I'm just frustrated with criticism and here I am criticizing in a different way.
I suspect what I'm most frustrated with ,that's causing some negative energy from me, is the injustices that we can't do anything about. I'm very passionate about wanting to do something to help the wild horse/mustang situation and it just continues to worsen. The BLM continues to ignore what the people want and are hurrying to take some of the horses off the public land before a decision is finalized with the House and Senate to reinstate the ROAM act and install some better plans to maintain healthy herds and healthy land. I'm not an educated expert on any of this but it seems the evidence is there that we've got some real unethical beings controlling way more then they should be able to control.

Back to your post....Honest and respectful comments don't bother me a bit. Certainly wouldn't want you to take anything of that sort back or delete it. When I see a comment made by you, no bells go off that you are one of the sarcastic ones that I find offensive. Sarcasm (of a cutting down sort in a public venue) hits me poorly whether it comes out of Pats mouth or someone else's.

The carrot stick isn't really a lunge whip however it can be used as such and for other things too. I like the logic behind calling it a carrot stick as it's supposed to be a middle ground between the gentle nature of feeding carrots and the firm action of using a whip.

Not aimed at you but I still think/know that many negative remarks are made out of a lack of knowledge about the whole program...making assumptions on small parts rather then a whole. Human Nature? Maybe...Or those that do say they don't like Pat cause he's out to make money. I have never gotten the feeling that marketing old as new or marketing anything is the gist of Parelli get-togethers. Different reactions by different people I guess.

I'm thankful for what Pat and Linda have put together for those of us that have not had the same opportunity as you to grow up around horses. They help us catch up with those that have had years of experience with horses. They also make us wiser and safer in handling them so we can live to progress. Much of their program is lessons in a box,...visual aids and lit.

One of the things I appreciate most about the Parelli program is what you mention in your last paragraph....'deeply connected and affectionate individual relationships with their horses. When I fell off my horse a few weeks ago, he stayed with me. When I came to the barn that night to let him know I was okay, he 'ran' to me 'nickering' and for several days after that he nickered as soon as he saw me. He comes 90% of the time to the gate so I don't have to walk out to the field to get him. My relationship with my horse is priceless to me.

I don't really see myself as a devout P fanatic...I go to many different people for advise and learning sources. I have books and videos by Rashid, Lyons, Chris Irwin, Monty Roberts, Ray Hunt, Cherry HIll, Tellington Jones, and many others. I've taken lessons from 4 people and only 1 of them used ANY of Parelli's techniques. Two didn't care for Parelli at all.

I gotta get on with it and I will try to Cheer-up and Chill-OUT!!!!! So anyway, I am sorry you thought I was aiming this at you as an individual.
You seem like a very good guy to me.
Keep Horsen Around... in whatever way makes you happy.
Glad you responded and made me more aware of how I was coming across.

Permalink Reply by Geoffrey Pannell on September 14, 2009 at 5:22am

Hi Shirley, Just want to talk to you about the lungeing . Here's a heads up about letting a horse decide to run on the lunge. That is a disobedience. If your horse takes off on the lunge you must stop him , ask for a downward transition, Remember , everything the horse is taught on the ground will transfer to when it is ridden. The more it happens all you are getting is a fitter disobedient horse, that will, over time, be harder to slow or stop. If the horse want to run and play , he can do it on his own time, in the paddock. I think this is the sort of thing that Jackie was talking about when she started this discussion, letting the horse whoop it up on the lunge is not letting off steam it is a serious disobedience. Would you let him do that under saddle? I might see if I can get some video of a youngster that I have to start next week and post it , so you can see what I mean, I'd be a lot better with this computer if it had ears and hoofs and went neigh!!! Cheers Geoffrey P.S. Your first instinct was correct ie to stop, so then to let him RUN after was the opposite of your first correction, so the horse has a hard time with the inconsistant training .

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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on September 14, 2009 at 11:07am

I think that Geoffrey addessed my initial question... as in Oliver running or spinning when on the line.. its a brat thing.... he is being disrespectful..

interesting that Geoffrey would make a reference to Cavalia.. very seldom do I hear that word.... but yet, I strive to do Cavalia type work with my horses... maybe because as a newbie, I don't have to ride to get them to do the fluid motion and turns and jumps and stuff that I've seen at the Cavalia display...

Yesterday, if you'd have seen me and Oliver maybe you would have said, Oh, she's trying Cavalia... that is the liberty free lunge work that me and Oliver and toby do... it looks like play, but it is work. :)

Ferrous, what you say is so true..... and what would a girl like me do with an accelerated horse???most likely fall off.... I've never gone past a trot... geez... which is why I am so adament about at least having the basics before I jump on..... I hope I don't end up in the thumbs up... one time, and I've only been on a few trail rides outside my neighborhood.... we trailered the horses across the wash..... My Toby... after about 2 hours... he had had it.... he was turning for home... his spin move is his most famous trick.... I tried to turn him back, but he was getting so tense....I climbed down.... Steve said, "why did you do that"? I told him... I can feel it, he is gonna blow... he is having a meltdown..... I walked with Toby up the hill, the intended direction, about a half a mile and we were done with the first leg of the ride and on our way home.. we had gone in a big circle..... he was so sweet when I jumped back on and so happy to be heading for the trailer..... then Steve said, "I think you were right to get off of him, he seems much more relaxed now".... I mean horses totally tell you... totally... Oliver is a much taller horse and maybe going to be more of a struggle to get on and off of, but I walk Toby around as much as I ride him.... like he doesn't do good going down a steep hill.. he won't move... but if I get down it's like he says, oh good I don't have to worry about her and me falling down this hill... his brain flys out the window if he gets nervous or scared and I think it is due to his lackof confidence with his physical abilities... and his age and arthritis... so I help the old dude out.. :)

Shirley, if you are happy doing what youare doing and wearing what you are wearing, then keep it up..... :)

Permalink Reply by Fiona Hill on September 14, 2009 at 12:23pm

The other thing I would add to what Geoffrey has written is that whilst it may be disobedient, or it may be 'high jinks', this sort of behaviour is very often caused by us.

If we are driving a horse forward (pushing energy to the flanks) while inadvertently also pushing our bellybutton towards the horse's face with our energy 'up' (pushing energy to the head) we are giving an extremely mixed message of two lots of driving energy in opposite directions - the one to the head being the most aggressive form of driving energy in horse language.

If your horse starts out nice and relaxed on the lunge, then kicks off and starts having a hooley for no apparent reason, it may well be this that is causing it. If they start off fine, then get increasing choppy in their stride, higher in the head, get faster and faster, more and more braced, start cantering, then bucking, head twirling and kicking out it is likely that each of these behaviours is an increasingly desperate message to tell us to get out of their face.

I'm not saying this is what happened to Shirley's horse, but I think the more people are aware of the possibility for this situation to occur, the better for the poor horses who are often stuck into side reins and forced to 'take it'. This is when it can turn dangerous, too.

If you think of it in terms of simple physics - where two lots of pushing energy come together from opposite directions, there will be some form of explosion outwards or upwards - think of a head on collision in a vehicle. The energy has to go somewhere.

Permalink Reply by Shirley on September 14, 2009 at 2:04pm

Actually when I saw how full of it he was, I encouraged him to run more as I saw appropriate. After he ran a bit I did do downward transitions. Then if he still wanted to run, I pushed him on and kept checking his mindset till the energy burned off. Then I continued to do transitions at a slower pace. I have had professionals (not Parelli) advise me as you have stated and also the opposite, to let them go and push them on a bit. Not including yanking the line from me. We went on to work in saddle that day. The next day we had one of the best rides in ages in a very controled manner. Big progress.
No, I'd stop him if I was in saddle.
Looking forward to seeing your video with the youngster and comparing it with my video of the day. I'll be aware of your experience, insights and advice.
Thanks for your time!.
Keep Horsen Around!
& Please help the wild horses

Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on September 14, 2009 at 1:52pm

Jennifer, I hope you read this.
I have been very worried for your safety because Oliver is showing stallion characteristics, especially charging his people!!! I looked up "proud cut geldings" and now it is said that this behavior is caused by HYPERACTIVITY OF THE ADRENAL GLANDS. The adrenal glands can produce testosterone, which causes the stallion like behavior. GET YOUR HORSE TESTED for this (too much testosterone), there may be treatment for this. Any male horse which is producing testosterone AND is in great pain (Oliver's TMJ) is extremely dangerous to handle. Please test him for this, it may save your sanity, save your hopes for Oliver, and make Oliver safe to train.

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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on September 14, 2009 at 4:44pm

Hi Jackie... thank you for worrying. I will check it out... Oliver was a sweetheart all weekend long... he seems in a much better mood.... I wonder how the horse would be tested? Jen

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Permalink Reply by Gail Morse on September 14, 2009 at 2:33pm

Hi Jacquie! Can you define the word play before I comment please. Want to make sure I am on the same page as you are. Thanks! Gail.

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