Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Catherine Chamberlain on December 8, 2009 at 8:27pm

Like you, I had the opportunity to ride an upper level horse to learn all the basics on. When it came time for me to get my own horse, my trainer suggested buying a high quality young horse as opposed to an average schoolmaster (though they are fantastic!). Because of the money we wanted to spend and my goals of competing at a high level, it made sense for us to get the high quality horse, even if we had to put the training on it. I ended up getting a five year old Dutch Warmblood working at training level, and I have to say I think I learned as much or even more by training a young horse than riding the schoolmaster, though I'm very grateful to have had both experiences. My horse is now seven and we're working on the Prix St. George movements to show at the end of next year. I would say that if you have the time, motivation, and right trainer to help you, training a young horse is a great learning experience, not to mention a lot of fun!

Wishing you the best of luck,
Catherine

Permalink Reply by Kinni P on December 9, 2009 at 9:26am

Good for you! It's always good to hear success stories. Good luck at PSG.

Permalink Reply by Jan Jollymour on December 10, 2009 at 3:33pm

Hi, Kinni:

Bless the fact that it was 15 degrees wherever Slc2 lives, because this person took the time to tell you the truth - all of it. Please start your jouney by taking all of this advice to heart - it is excellent advice (I couldn't have put it better myself), it is honest, and there is nothing driving it but good sense, experience, and a desire to help you to not make the mistakes most of us have made already.

Moving up the levels takes many people a lifetime, and for even more people it actually never happens. On top of that, if I had a dime for every rider who's approached me looking for a "GP" prospect, I'd have my mortgage paid off, and of those people, exactly one (1!!) has made it to GP. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the vast majority (better than 90%) will never make it to PSG, let alone GP, and they (and probably you) do not need a GP prospect. You need to learn to ride well what you have now, and then go shopping for the next step up, and then learn to ride that well, until one day, if you're very lucky and you've worked incredibly hard, and you were born with better than average talent, you might find yourself worthy of and ready for a GP prospect.

I believe in dreams, and I think they're very important, but you are starting at the wrong end of the journey. Please read Slc2's comments very carefully and commit them to memory, so that with luck those kernels of wisdom will pop into your head when a trainer/vendor/agent is trying to push you to buy more than you can either ride or afford...

Permalink Reply by Jan Jollymour on December 10, 2009 at 7:01pm

Actually, as a judge, I'd have to say that most people quit well before Third Level. Take a look at entries...

Furthermore, I didn't say anything about what any of us "deserve", although I did talk about what we "earn". Those are different concepts, and in a perfect world we all deserve wonderful horses, however, as you say, often what we have is wonderful, and we fail to recognize that.

I think the big message here is that dressage is not easy, is often not pretty, and very often isn't "soft, supple, light, etc."...

Permalink Reply by Kinni P on December 10, 2009 at 8:53pm

Thanks for the hearty words of discouragement. I know it came from a place of caring. I've already heard it, but you pitched it very well! ;)

It's hard to just put yourself out on the internet without giving a thorough bio. Rest assured, I have schooled green and young, young horses. As for my own horse, he was pretty badly abused after his track days. I'm not entirely certain he'll be o.k. at shows ever, but I continue to try for I'm not sure what reason, maybe love of the work. As far as the training goes, he just doesn't have the calm and the focus that is required. My trainer thinks he can make it to First Level Test 2. I'm not convinced he'll make it out of the trailer.

I'm a working student into the indefinite future. Training isn't costing me much but elbow grease. My trainer has suggested a young but talented horse would be a better use of the money I have. (Though she has said I should take my time, and take the horse I have as far as possible.) I agree with her. I have a very stable training (and fiscal) environment in which to bring this horse up. We won't find ourselves 'left out to dry'.

My trainer has trained some very successful riders. She also was very upfront about the limitations of her abilities. She can help me get to GP (she has silver and bronze from USDF), but when she feels like she isn't helping any more, she'll kick me out the door(figuratively). She's done it before.

As for me, I don't entertain thoughts of becoming a superstar. Dressage is difficult. Were it not, it wouldn't really interest me. It'll be a good, few years (haha) before I see GP from the back of my hypothetical, young horse, but it will be my horse start to finish.

I enjoy the hell out of something hard to do, especially when it's physical, and I'm a very good humoured failure. I love to see improvement in myself and my partner (be it riding or martial arts). I know that success doesn't happen without some really spectacular failures. I have the gut to do this!

Thanks again folks. I will take it all to heart.

Permalink Reply by Jan Jollymour on December 10, 2009 at 9:22pm

Hi again, Kinni:

My apologies for sounding discouraging - I think it's easier to communicate this stuff in person! I make my living coaching and training, with some judging assignments thrown in, and I see so many people who have overextended themselves both financially and personally with regard to their equine purchases, and in many instances don't, in spite of all of that sacrifice, find satisfaction.

Dressage is a wonderful sport, and one of the most wonderful aspects of it is that it can be successfully approached with almost any partner if the human partner's goals and time frames are appropriate. I love the fact that I see riders on every kind of horse and cross possible, and some of them are incredibly successful (I have one client who determinedly crossed an Iirish Draft Horse on a Hungarian mare, and the resulting offspring DID get to GP). I have also known OTTB's to get to GP, as well as QH's, Arabs, etc.

I am glad that you took our discouraging thoughts in the spirit in which they were meant. There is no doubt that both of us had your best interests at heart, and it is gratifying to discover the depth of your background and forethought. Thank you for sharing that!

Permalink Reply by Kinni P on December 10, 2009 at 10:37pm

Cheers Jan!

You're right about all the breeds that can make it to GP [tickles my ribs]. My trainer's first GP horse was a 3 y.o. TB from a rodeo. I suspect it takes a special amount of sensitivity to create a GP horse out of a conformationally or behaviourally challenged horse. I don't expect to do that on my first attempt. I'd like something bred for this purpose, something young and limber. I love the 'riding on a rocket' feeling I get from big moving warmbloods! The degree of relaxation/flexibility/tone it takes to ride them poses a challenge, but is so effortless when it works. Practically speaking, I'm an athlete seeking an athletic partner. I know you two have much more detailed advice on selecting and starting a horse. I'd like to hear it.

Permalink Reply by Kinni P on December 11, 2009 at 9:29am

Sound advice all the way. I like what you've written below about good sportsmanship. For very competitive people, it can be hard to keep a level head. That's why I try to laugh at my own shortcomings whenever possible (that's after I sit in a stall and cry, of course).
I'm curious, how many horses did you go through getting to GP? Did you start them all, or did you buy something with a little training on it? Finally (for now), what do you think of mares? I know each one is an individual. I also know what hormonal changes over time can do. My trainer hasn't said "No mares", but she definitely discourages it.

Permalink Reply by Jan Jollymour on December 11, 2009 at 10:22am

Hi, Kinni:

For some reason the site's insisting on my response in a different place, so I hope you get it!

I love mares, but then I love horses, regardless of sex, size, colour or breed. Right now I'm riding mares almost exclusviely as competition horses, and if I had to choose between mares, stallions and geldings I would take mares every time. I rode stallions for 15 years (exclusively) and while if another amazing stallion was offered to me I'd probably take him on that wouldn't be my first choice - they are too undependable when the chips are down, and there's nothing lazier than a lazy stallion. Geldings can be wonderful, and I've had several, but a mare who really wants to do the job for you is like nothing else. I have 2 Darwin (KWPN) mares right now in competiition, one is 1/2 TB (approved) and the other is all "Dutch", (Darwin x Havidoff). Interestingly the Dutch mare is hot and sensitive, the 1/2 TB mare is steadier and waits for me to explain things. Both, however, have incredible work ethics, and meet every question and challenge with "I think I can, let me try", and "Isn't this fun?". They have both developed into solid competition horses who are the most dependable competition horses i have ever had, and the same is true of their owner, an Olympic Team rider from Austria, who was determined she would never buy or ride a mare!

The things I look for first when shopping for prospects are balance, correct (not necessarily extravagant) gaits, and TRAINABILITY. I have made the mistake of buying huge talent first and trainability last, and while I learned tons, it was an alternately exhilirating and exhausting experience. I do not recommend it to most of my clients, but I currently have one who bought such a horse against my better judgment and she's making it work, albeit slowly. She too is learning a great deal, and is enjoying that learning, but she has determined that learning is what satisfies her, so it works. It is possible to get those three requirements plus great gaits, it just often (but not always) in one horse, but I won't buy something just on the basis of the gaits ever again, especially not for a client.

I think slc2 has again given you good feedback in that the more talented and capable you are the more likely it is that you will run into people who shoot down your dreams. You sound like you have opportunities available to you, just as I did and still do, and there are many who envy that and will try to discourage you. For some reason many of those people discount the work which goes into the making of those opportunities, and mark them down to luck alone. I too was fortunate in having a terrific mentor, great coaches who took and still take a personal interest in me and my development, and super sponsors willing to buy me good horses. However, I was and still am careful to take very good care of those people and of the possibilities they give me, and so the opportunities contiue to happen.

I have had many horses through my career, of all different shapes and sizes, and some of them have really surprised me with what they can do. One is the little mare I ride right now, whom I bought as a project, and who has turned out to be a tremendously rewarding ride in every way. She is 7, coming on strong at PSG, and winning all the way. She is not a brilliant horse, but judges love the harmony we have, and I love her enthusiastic approach to everything in life. She is an absolute joy to ride down a centreline. My 4 y.o. is a brilliant horse, and so far seems to have the right attitude, but she has not yet been presented in competition, so we will see where the chips fall this spring when that happens...

I have started nearly all our horses, but a few have had some start elsewhere. Mostly we buy them at about the 90 day stage, and take them from there. That way we don't inherit the problems others have created, and things go more smoothly. I have to say that sorting out basic training issues on "made" horses is more frustrating and often takes more time than bringing along younger greener horses who have a clean slate. I personally prefer that, but when someone gives me a good horse with some issues I don't turn it down - those horses also teach me a lot, and we usually manage to get through the problems and get things worked out. Keep an open mind, and try to see the possibilities in every horse - some of them will amaze you!

Permalink Reply by Kinni P on December 12, 2009 at 10:23am

Thanks Jan. I've definitely learned a lot from my TB. The most important thing I've learned is that rehab is not for me. I'm very proud of the progress we've made, but it has been gruelling. Buying a horse without baggage is definitely high on my list of priorities.
I'm glad to hear that mares have done so well for you. I really do like the mares I've ridden, but some of them have really been a handful. I guess I'm not ready to rule them out just yet. This process is, after all, about taking the time it takes to find the right horse for me.
In the interest of full disclosure, I'm not as young as my goofiness and greeness may suggest. ;) I'm a very fit 35. I have scrapped, begged, borrowed, gambled and wheedled myself to this place. It's been a hard road and I have no intention of giving up now. I've tried different barns. The one I'm at now is filled with the most generous and supportive people I could ask for.
Thanks again folks. I am a lucky girl for having access to such knowledgeable and considerate people. Keep an eye out, I'll be needing your input again, I'm sure.