simple and easy let me just ask....

 

What do you think is the reason why a horse is bullyish towards strangers? 

 

What are your suggestions to do something about it? 

 

Have you seen any good training videos or tools used to properly introduce a bully horse to new people...

 

 

Short background.  My horse, Oliver, he is very docile with me..... and anyone he knows he's sweet... but new people, borderline kind of dangerous... it saddens me to have a horse that I love that I cannot trust with my friends or family and I would love some easy steps to start with as this problem has got to be resolved or Oliver will not ever be able to leave my yard without my trainer.  I'm not sure if I trigger it or not... he is an orphaned horse, I raised him.. I just wonder what is going on with him... he is sweet/scary.....

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Jennifer:

The water was a stroke of genius! You may have felt mean and bossy, but your horse responded to your increased assertiveness exactly as we'd wish him to.

I think Shirley's on target (forgive the lousy pun) in that when we are very clear witho ur demands our horses can and do relax, because they're not worrying about correctly interpreting fuzzy cues. In my experience most horses like to work, if treated fairly, and Oliver will probably be the same.

If you have the opportunity to watch a herd for a couple of hours you'll see how definitely horses treat other horses. I don't think that gives us the right to brutalize them, but horses mostly don't "ask" when at liberty with other horses, rather, they do a lot of "telling", and it's often noisy and a little scary. Oliver's not made of glass, and he won't break if you make some mistakes. Horses are incredibly forgiving of well-meaning mistakes; it's the mistakes and treatment which are tied up in ego and ambition which create horror stories, for the most part.

I think you really stepped out of your box today, and discovered some strengths in yourself that you weren't sure were there. Oliver responded accordingly, so keep up the good work!!
Honestly you guys, I have to beg to differ in one or two areas... my horses are very sweet to one another..... Toby and Oliver do not kick or anything...... it's hard to tell who's the boss of who.. I've hung out with them for HOURS..... Toby pins his ears and Oliver gives him the food.... :) I've done this work with Oliver before... for 5 months I didn't let him near me..... I didn't stroke him or pet him.... I pushed him off his food, off his grain, off his water..... and I've been mean for 5 years... I never fed him out of my hand and I've never even fed him unless he backed away from the feeder... so being mean for 5 years with no fun has been a really hard challenge for me... when my pony was following me nicely I was happy..... :) To read that is bored is sad, that he is disobedient is sad but that's okay.... I am willing to do what is best for Oliver.... tough love sucks guys it really does.......

I am very afraid of going into tight places and wonking on him though... I cannot absolutely cannot do that yet... it is really scary..... but if I stay real calm in a tight place and ask him to move, while walking, he will do it when he understands... he really is easy.... kinda a big baby hughey.... ugh.....

so where we are now is that he will not come into my space hopefully and I am willing to "own it"... but pushing him out of his own space, that I'm scared about still.... I think I can work up to it though....

:)
Hi, Jen:

Being firm and assertive isn't the same thing as being mean. It can be confusing to watch your strong-minded horse being pushed around by another horse - especially a horse which is so careful around you. Herd dynamics don't always make sense to us, because we're not herd animals.

There's a grey area between black (mean) and white (pushover) that you need to find. Part of that is you changing your ideas about what horses like/dislike, to some degree you're anthropomorphizing (we all do it, I do too), which clouds your perception of who your horses are and how they interact with the world.

You are right, tough love does suck! I am the parent of a teenager, and I have 3 dogs and 6 horses, and I could not agree more! Try to remember the "love" part as much as the "tough" part - it's the really important part.

I can't say that I blame you at all for not wanting to be in a tight place with a horse. Most of us don't like it, I know I don't! I will do what I have to when I have to do it, but that would never be my first choice!
:) I already raised a teenager..... pshu.... check that off my list. :) Jan, I've so enjoyed this conversation, with all of you..... and thanks for your comments and suggestions..... this is what I learned.... obedience versus compliance, owning it..... :) I hope someday me and Oliver get to actually go somewhere because so far I feel like I am dealing with his orphanness and it's not been a pleasure by any means...
Jennifer I wish I could so give you a hug of support...so here is a cyber one ((()))

honest as much as we are picking and giving you stuff to work on..its no reflection on you.. its just us helping you on your journey and refining it...

and this is a journey you are in the early stages of, the biggest part is that you are willing and wanting to learn and soak it all up and that is just so refreshing and wonderful to see and read...I for one am 30 years into mine and still learning every day...and am honored that we can help you on your path..

try and remind yourself that many of our emotions and labels for them do not factor in the horses world.. mean and such just do not exist.. but leadership, reward, care, food, water, movement does...there really are only a few labels that we give that can fit in a horses world, lazy, opportunistic lol

remember tho.. you do not have to send him and challenge him and leave it at that.. its about rewarding that part as well.. so own the water.. or food.. let him in.. then when he is done, ask him to you and have your cuddle.. define it for him..but it must be at your request not his demand
Thanks for your hug.... I love the support... I find positive reinforcement works best for me too... :)
Day too.... do the work on days you really feel up to it....

Today I just did it... like Nike I guess..... my horse trots, what an amazing concept..... he's looking to Toby for security now and Toby is snorting at me..... I am using probably way too much energy but for the first couple of days I need Oliver to really be paying attention to the new me...... Jan, I even did what I was so afraid to do.... I chased him out of his small stall...... by the time I'd wonked on him a few times for going to close to the carrot bin then ran both of my horses around in the beautiful misty weather that does not kick up dirt, he was at least stopping far away with his head up and both eyes on me...... if he tried to fallow me I stopped and chased him off...... he still doesn't go away as fast as my other horse but when I got to his tail I got him to move faster woohoo!! I ran after him and chased him all around... when I felt brave and eventhough he was eating, I chased him out of his stall... when he turned his butt to me I smacked him so hard he tore out of the stall.. woohoo.... and didn't know what to make of it..... ran over and stood far away and then I invited him back into the stall and gave him his food back and scratched is beautiful head...... I don't intend to do this work for very long.. I'm using it as a reintroduction into the herd... once he starts doing what I ask I'm going back to my easy self.....

don't look at the horses head at all when provoking authority either if you are a newbee or trying out your assertion skills..... I believe my horse paws because I am not giving him room to move forward, I'm blocking his front end, he's in a tight space and I'm bearing down on him... he has no where to go..... go for your horses hind end and push him away from you at all times..... Oliver and I have a tendency to square off..... turning him away has always been really hard and felt really mean.... to have a horse come up all nice, I'm not offended by him or his closeness..... he's layed down with me so I could climb on him.. other people feel offended by his closeness so okay I guess that would be a majority.... he wants to groom me too... anyway, I degress... I was extremely assertive the last two days and got my way on everything so far, business and horse wise... :) Oliver and I are doing good at phase 2 of who is the new mare?
awww you are doing so great!! remember that when you say yes you can come into the carrot bin, bring him to you... rub his forehead and then he can go into the bin,, its a good sequence to allow you to show physical affection then the food is still the reward

try and find your balance.. you have found the get out button.. so use is as you need to.. don't be consistent then drop the energy down.. the snorting from the other fella is alertness this is wow we have a leader..

so the right time to raise your energy to that level is, when you have asked asked and you need to tell... the responses will improve and while you will find your physical cues smaller the energy needs to remain similar or just a touch less...
Brilliant, Jen! Keep up the good work!
So, day 3... really just having my whip and keeping him the distance of the end of it and he and I..... but waiting until he turns and looks at me with even just his eyes and then I let him go... he started to follow me and I just made sure that it was the distance that I allowed or I tried to run him off.... he doesn't run off but sort of braces, ugh...... but at least I more defined my space today.... I didn't have as much time today, just made a bubble around me and didn't let him in... he has tmj today.... I gave him some carrots in his bucket and did a treatment on him.... I hope he feels better.... anyway, every day I do my part to be the herd leader between me and Tob and Oliver..... they were running around and getting exercise too, we all were... yesterday was better because it was slightly drizzling and the earth was wet... I love that.. today I was getting dust in my face... lol.. and I'm allergic to it.... headache tomorrow.. woohoo!!
When my horse is being told he seems to shut down. :( I do think clicker training might be a good alternative for Oliver.... I'm re reading the book now..... :)
Hi, Jennifer:

I'm back from my weekend away, just in time to do laundry and cooking and get ready to leave again Friday.

Once you feel that Oliver is respectful of your space you can start to go to him (not let him come to you at first) for rewards. If he maintains his respect, and moves away from you when your body language confronts him, you can begin to invite him to come to you for rewards.

I think you've got the right idea about the clicker training. Oliver wants to be connected to you, but he now has to figure out how to do that with respect and space, rather than because he controls you. That's a new experience for him, and as he was an orphan, he had no herd to teach him to read body language and respond appropriately. You are now his leader, from the sound of things, and that's the position you need and deserve. Bear in mind that Oliver also needs and deserves to have a strong and competent leader!

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