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Body language of horses; the calming signals
In the video "Linda Parelli shows how to effectivly hit with the snap" I commented on the horses use of what I call "calming signals". Since there were some interesst in what I wrote I thougth we could talk about it in this forum thread.
I wrote (so I don't have to repeat myself):
Cartoonracher wrote: "When the young woman is trying to back her horse away (under the big tree), he's obviously confused and "over" the whole lesson. He's tuning her out because nothing he's done has been rewarded. It's nothing but non-stop horse-irritating."
I reacted especially to that scene, too. At first the girl is trying to back the horse when he is in front of the tree. Horses don't have good depth perception, especially backwards, so it seems he is asked to back into the tree, something he feels he can't.
After this the horse is seemingly tuning her out, something Linda claims is disrespectful. The sad thing about it is that the horse is NOT tuning her out, the horse is communicating with horse body language that he is not wanting any conflict. I talk about this in my body language clinics a lot, because not many people seems to be aware of the horses
"calming signals".
Horses use these signals when they feel pressured and wants to let the person understand that they perceive them as agitated/aggressive, but that the person can calm down, because they do not pose any threat to them.
Some of the comments here has been about the horse arching away and trying to turn away from the people. What the horse is trying to do is to signal that he's NOT a threat, and by that it's trying to get the person to not be so aggressive. This is the very opposite of disrespect!
The worst thing about the horses calming signals is that it provokes people. People feel ignored and that is for a human a big provocation. Especially when they have been taught that this is a disrespectful sign from the horse! It's a bit off topic here, but I mention it because it's part of the problem with the clip; not only is she using a horrible technique, she is also gravely misreading the horse!
Even a mild correction would have been wrong when the horse is signaling "lets just have peace - I don't wish to fight with you"… if a horse gives you that message and you correct it you are basically telling it "I don't want peace - and I do want to have a fight".
Like I said, it's off topic, but if someone wants me to explain more about these signals I can, we could always make a separate discussion about it.
The horses calming signals is something I haven't written about before although I talk about this in my clinics. There are a couple of reasons for that: one, I don't know how to begin writing about it - in a clinic it comes naturally when a horse displays the signals - and also because I don't know how much people knows about this already. In Scandinavia, where I live and teach, I know that my students says that this is news to them, but for all I know this is common knowledge in Canada :)
Another big reason is that what I am talking about goes against what most trainers believe in, and rocks the foundation of what many people consider natural horsemanship. I think...
Last, but not least; it is a big topic... so to write about it is a big task, but I will do so if I see that people truly are interessted in what I am talking about :)
That is why I want this to be in a discussion form, to get a grasp of what you know about this already, and also to be able to show some video clips to show you what I am talking about.
To not make this text too long I think it's a good idea if I write seperate posts about the different signals. That way I can add on information as I see what people have questions about :)
I wrote (so I don't have to repeat myself):
Cartoonracher wrote: "When the young woman is trying to back her horse away (under the big tree), he's obviously confused and "over" the whole lesson. He's tuning her out because nothing he's done has been rewarded. It's nothing but non-stop horse-irritating."
I reacted especially to that scene, too. At first the girl is trying to back the horse when he is in front of the tree. Horses don't have good depth perception, especially backwards, so it seems he is asked to back into the tree, something he feels he can't.
After this the horse is seemingly tuning her out, something Linda claims is disrespectful. The sad thing about it is that the horse is NOT tuning her out, the horse is communicating with horse body language that he is not wanting any conflict. I talk about this in my body language clinics a lot, because not many people seems to be aware of the horses
"calming signals".
Horses use these signals when they feel pressured and wants to let the person understand that they perceive them as agitated/aggressive, but that the person can calm down, because they do not pose any threat to them.
Some of the comments here has been about the horse arching away and trying to turn away from the people. What the horse is trying to do is to signal that he's NOT a threat, and by that it's trying to get the person to not be so aggressive. This is the very opposite of disrespect!
The worst thing about the horses calming signals is that it provokes people. People feel ignored and that is for a human a big provocation. Especially when they have been taught that this is a disrespectful sign from the horse! It's a bit off topic here, but I mention it because it's part of the problem with the clip; not only is she using a horrible technique, she is also gravely misreading the horse!
Even a mild correction would have been wrong when the horse is signaling "lets just have peace - I don't wish to fight with you"… if a horse gives you that message and you correct it you are basically telling it "I don't want peace - and I do want to have a fight".
Like I said, it's off topic, but if someone wants me to explain more about these signals I can, we could always make a separate discussion about it.
The horses calming signals is something I haven't written about before although I talk about this in my clinics. There are a couple of reasons for that: one, I don't know how to begin writing about it - in a clinic it comes naturally when a horse displays the signals - and also because I don't know how much people knows about this already. In Scandinavia, where I live and teach, I know that my students says that this is news to them, but for all I know this is common knowledge in Canada :)
Another big reason is that what I am talking about goes against what most trainers believe in, and rocks the foundation of what many people consider natural horsemanship. I think...
Last, but not least; it is a big topic... so to write about it is a big task, but I will do so if I see that people truly are interessted in what I am talking about :)
That is why I want this to be in a discussion form, to get a grasp of what you know about this already, and also to be able to show some video clips to show you what I am talking about.
To not make this text too long I think it's a good idea if I write seperate posts about the different signals. That way I can add on information as I see what people have questions about :)
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on
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way to go shirley... :) you guys are very inspirational.....
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Permalink Reply by Marlene Thoms on
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Maybe he is tense because you are, that's what I hear, from some. But maybe he's just a chicken. My guy is spooky sometimes even when I'm not. He is more likely to spook when I'm on him. But then sometimes he surprises me. I tried a newish trail one day in an area we were both familiar with. The trial went into some tricky spots, so I got off. Not because I was afraid but it was very steep down a short drop,he was practically skittering on his bum, then it got worse, thick brush, and I started sweating a bit. We got into a gulley, no way out but forward (I know stupid rider), then there was a huge tree right across the bottom of the gulley. I actually thought my scardey cat arab would be freaking by now, I was totally faking confidence. I finally found a way up a bit, past the big log, and we somehow picked our way through the brush. He was a trooper,never once acted spooky, I was a nervous wreck. Why did he trust me then? Over my head, definitely.
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Permalink Reply by Shirley on
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I wonder if he sensed that you were in control and determined to get you both out of the situation and he trusted you to do that. What a great experience to have behind you to give both of you confidence.
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After one of our "bird in the bush" incidents, one of my ideas was to take along a crop (which he is not afraid of). When we pass by bushes I often just tap or wiggle the crop in the bushes randomly as we pass them. It irritates him a little, but I do it just to that point, not to get him really scared. After a while he gets accoustom to it, knows it's me, and twitches less. Whether it would make a difference in the long run for immunization against real bird incidents, I don't know. I also cut out his alfalfa which helped a lot.
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I like this idea ...shaking the bushes. Sure should help.
Cash is getting good hay with little alphalfa and a handful of grain am and pm.
BUT...he has 4 horses in his pasture. The grass is pretty much eatten down as it does each year around this time. So the barn owner is giving them a little hay outside in the morning about 8am. It's gone pretty quickly. Then they nibble on what's creeping up in the pasture the rest of the day. Basically just keeps them entertained. Then they are fed 2 or three flakes of good hay around 8 at night. He's in good condition as far as weight but he is very food oriented.
I'm wondering if he could be stressed at his lack of food by late afternoon. Basically he hasn't had much for about 9/10 hours (sometimes 11 or 12hrs). When I can I come in the earlier evening and either give him a flake or graze him in a grassey area of the farm. Then I ride or play with him.
Yesterday I got to the barn about 6 (so 10 hrs since breakfast) and as soon as he heard me he came running and did a great slideing stop at the gate. I gave him a small flake in his stall and headed out to do some circling on-line/lunging. Started out pretty calm and then got more and more high spirited. I was doing transitions with him to try to keep him focused but he did one major big jerk and was out of my hands (useing gloves and a rope halter) Usually if I bend down and look at his butt and tell him 'whoa' he will stop @ turn toward me. Not then! Seemed to actually inspire him to run faster. "HA HA, you can't stop me" So Lead line attached he is running to win the race and I'm sure he would have if he had a competidor. (He runs better then I spell) He was just running faster and faster and I was afraid he was going to trip on the rope and break his neck. I gave up, stopped and stood still, quit yelling whoa and took a big sigh "Let Jesus Take the Wheel" moment. and he stopped and started eatting grass. I walked up to him and got his long lead and that was the end of that. I did continue to lunge him but kept him under strict control. And then did a bunch of other ground work. As a side note, the weather was beautiful ...perfect day for a run. He was feeling frisky for sure. By the time I figured he was rideable I had about 2.5 hours with him and it was time for my dinner and his as all... the horses were in for the night. Oh and I'd walked all around the arena trying to put back the grass where he'd dug it up running. Our outdoor has a sand center and then there is grass growing around it and the barn owner wants that smooth for mowing. So there is some grass inside the arena.
So where was I going with this long story? Wondering if his feed schedule is contributing to the spookiness. He is getting enough food but is he getting it spread out too far when he goes for 10 hours. I get nervous and jumpy if I go all day with no food and I don't have a stomach that was designed to graze all day. A curiosity???? Any thoughts? About any of this? Food, running, spooking??
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Permalink Reply by Sarah Siler on
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It could be the spacing of the feeding times, it could be the weather...and then it could have been 'just one of those days'. Horses have those days, just like us humans, when they just 'feel their oats', or they want to play hooky from work, who really knows. All I can tell you is not to try and analyze things so much, just take what happened for what happened. It sounds like you ended on a good note, so just take that and look forward to the next time you're able to be with him. I have found that there will be times that we, as humans, are just never really going to know why what happens...happens. Not much help huh?
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I agree, Sarah is right on. Stuff happens, lol. I was talking to my dad about my Guy's energy level, spookiness etc..He's from the old school of people who actually used horses for a purpose. He cleared farm land and built roads with a team of six, so he has no idea why I'd get a horse just for pleasure. But at any rate, he said to me "What that horse needs is a job. Something to do besides standing around all day waiting for his next bale of hay. I thought that was funny and so true. I said, he has a job, it's taking me for a nice long ride over rocky trails almost every day. So after a couple three hours of riding, I'm bushed. My horse may be temporarily relaxed after that, but he has another 21 hours to recharge his batteries! Trickle feeding helps their tummies, but only somewhat occupies their mind. In the wild a lot of their mental energy would be spent actually seeking food,finding and travelling to new pastures, keeping alert for predators. So I think they transfer some of that to the short time they might be active with us, and it comes out as excess energy or spookiness. It's just the nature of the beast.
Oh, and to help with the trickle feeding, I had to resort to a grazing muzzle for my guy, he's such a lawnmower. Just restricting the amount of time wasn't working, and he's a very easy keeper. Once he got the hang of the muzzle, he doesn't mind and it keeps him busy and contented grazing for the time he is out without stuffing himself too much. -
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I probably do over analyze. I'm wanting things to happen on my time table. I always enjoy my time with Cash and do lots of different things with him. Just anxious to do some trail riding but I don't feel like he's ready and I'm not a good enough rider to head out on the trail with an inexperienced trail horse. It will come with time. I think maybe I should quit feeling like a failure cause we aren't there yet and just enjoy the journey and whatever we do together. Pride is not neccesary in this picture. If I never feel okay about riding on trails with him after some good effort....we'll keep learning communication skills/trick training.
I am going to work on the bush whacking suggestion. -
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Permalink Reply by Ellen Ofstad on
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I think you DO need to analyze this a bit actually. The horse is telling you something and you should try to find out what it is. As for the food part, they should be given more frequently. Is there a way for you to get filmed when you work with him so I could see you together?
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that is Olivers favorite move... he takes the lead rope, pulls it to the opposite way, runs off with it and rips it out of my hands, he has a very stong neck and head..... I did try to figure out why as much as how to help him over whatever he is trying to tell me which is woman, when attached to you with a rope I get nervous, and feeling like I should take charge because you are not..... for this reason, like 6 months ago, I S L O W E D down.. i said, what energy do I need to have to keep this from happening? I certainly can't leave my yard if he is going to jerk the rope away.. i took it as a literal translation that he is in no way gonna let me lead him around in my current state of things.... so I started haltering him..... and having him bend to the inside by walking towards his tail, keeping a very loose rein and then taking off the halter..... over and over... when he calmed down on the end of my lead rope and breathed and relaxed, I moved on.... to walking from one place to another with no fight and then took it off....... we have to keep it from happening as much as correcting it when it happens. ..... I think Cash is sensing something in you from 12 feet away..... my horse spooks when I'm a mess put it that way... :) you are trying to keep up with what you think you need to be doing when sometimes we have to take few steps back... so... Oliver, we can start to go on walks when we can always have a loose rein and you don't mind bending your head to the inside instead of pulling around to the outside...... however long that takes, we've been working on it for a few months.... I'm boring I know... but I have to trust him too in that he won't jerk me around so I went back to our communication and showing him that I am worthy of being on the end of his rope... :) it's like a telephone... I go for his tail, when he turns his head in, I drop it.. Oliver and I do things in a really slow way though and over and over before we move on... ...... he seems a lot calmer now. Shiley, I met a woman once with a big agenda who thought me letting my horse sniff my hair as an exercise was stupid.... she had a 6 year old gelding that she really wanted to get out on the trail.... he was a nervous horse and she had her agenda and all..... tragically on one of their very first trail rides he accidentally got caught in a rope she had with her for somereason and he fell and went down and was hung by the rope...... she has since given up riding, sold her trailer everything...... so honey, just relax.... horses don't care about all this.. but wouldn't it be awful if something happened to your lovely horse because of an agenda????? you do alot of things with your horse that I haven't even started to learn yet... but Oliver is HERE, alive and well to practice with so that is the most important thing..... :) to move forward we have to slow down or even take steps back... their attitude is more important than their performance..... hugs sugar...
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Shirley, have you ever been hypnotized? I have been... because I was a spooker myself and I wanted to help my horse... my point being that whenever things get funky, I plant my feet, breathe in breathe out and ground myself down and bring him back to what we are working on..... when I started working on me instead of him it changed everything.... it didn't matter to me what he is doing... it matters to him what I am doing..... but hypnosis brought me to subconsciously reminding myself to focus on me, breathe, relax, and GROUND myself... really helped... my hypnotherapist works with equestrians... happy trails girlfriend!!
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Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on
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I have found that so long I ACT like I have confidence, courage, competence or what ever the horse never seems to worry about my insecurity, fear, terror, etc., etc., etc., so long I do not hurt the horse.
One time I HAD to catch a Paso Fino breeding stallion, one that was not really handled regularly. I was scared, my whole body was trembling, but I took the lead rope (luckily he had a halter on), walked just like I did up to my gelding, said hi, snapped on the lead rope, good boy, and walked him to his stall and got him in and unsnapped safely.
I was TERRIFIED. It did not matter to the stallion. Calm, smooth, normal movements reassure a horse even when the handler is mentally freaking out.
But when a scared person purposely HURTS a horse, well, look out, there is going to be trouble ahead.
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