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Do you think that the definition of GOOD HORSEMANSHIP has changed since you began to ride?
When I started educating myself about horsemanship in Northern Virginia in the early 1960's among the many authors I read in the English field (hunt seat and dressage) there was a pretty consistent definition of good horsemanship. Though I was not as familiar with Western riding there seemed to be a consistent definition of good horsemanship in Western riding also.
Now many people appear to think that many previously "forbidden" practices are good. Are you as confused as I am? Do you agree with the newer practices? If so, how have they helped you in comparision to the old ways of good horsemanship?
Now many people appear to think that many previously "forbidden" practices are good. Are you as confused as I am? Do you agree with the newer practices? If so, how have they helped you in comparision to the old ways of good horsemanship?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jan Jollymour on
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Hi, Jackie:
I'd certainly have to say that there seems to be much less of it around than there used to be! It seems to me that many of the "real horsemen" are dying off, and there are not a lot of new ones taking their places...
There are previously "forbidden" and/or "required" practices which have now been proven to be either unnecessary or even sometimes harmful (like the bran mash thing - I have a client whose horse developed "big head" disease as a 4 y.o. due to her stringent requirement for bran mashes coupled with a grass hay diet), but overall I think that most of the old truisms are still valid. I am, despite much pressure to the contrary, still a devotee of "classical" dressage, and am likely to remain so. I still think George Morris often has a valid point, and see many things the same way he does. I'd still rather see the horse than the rider and the bling. I'd still rather my horses meet me at the gate when they see me, than win yet another cooler, saddle pad, or halter. I'm still a stickler for cleanliness in the barn, in the paddocks, in the tack room, for myself and my horses, etc., and happy to be so.
As a trainer, coach and competitor who started out in the Western division and progressed through hunters, jumpers, equitation, and in-hand classes to my final destination of dressage I'd have to say that the loss of just plain good horsemanship affects every discipline. I think the advent of the Pat Parelli style of "horsemanship packaging" is more and more necessary as fewer people come from a deep equestrian background. I think too that our North American desire for "quick fixes" and "short bytes" predicates much of what is now practiced and promoted instead of basic horsemanship. Unfortunately, I hold Pony Club and 4H partly responsible for the decline, as there seems to be too much emphasis on getting to the goal and not enough on the process, at least in what I've seen. There's definitely a decline in the quality of PC "A" successful candidates - maybe it's just a sign of a general societal decline in values and approaches?
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Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on
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Let me see if I can remember specifics:
1) number one, by the importance ALL the authors put on it--riding behind the bit was only used by BAD horsemen or ignorant people who did not know better. This showed up in a LOT of the books, hunt seat, saddle seat, dressage, and western.
2) next in importance, the necessity to develop good, independent and responsive hands. You could get away with a bad seat if your hands were decent (though people might pity you, at least they were not pitying your horse.)
3) the necessity of developing a firm and secure seat before jumping (though in some systems a good elementary position was good enough for some low jumping.)
4) the necessity of having to ride well for YEARS before you got good enough even to think about taking up dressage. (I was never really considered good enough for dressage. They were right, of course.)
5) the insistance that the competition/working horse did better with at least one vacation a year.
6) that a good horse and rider did not need any bling. True excellence was sufficient.
7) if the horse was injured or sick they were REMOVED from competition. Of course there are always lots of people who didn't, but they were looked down upon and we were told NEVER to follow their example.
There were more, these are just the ones I remember now.
I am aware that horsemen of every age bemoan the sad state of horsemanship. It is just that I got a feeling, backed up with everything I experienced at hunt seat stables, that FINALLY the young people were being taught good horsemanship from the get-go, usually with the Pony Club getting a lot of the credit. Otherwise you were told to find the best stable you could and to never compromise about good horsemanship, no matter what everyone else was doing around you.
I have spent the last 39 years trying to live up to these ideals.
And you know, whenever I see my horse even start to get behind the bit my legs act until the horse is moving freely again. I've seen too many problems with other people to even consider allowing the horse to continue behind the bit. I do not care how much "easier" the horse may be to ride while behind the bit. I work hard to improve the security of my seat and the steadiness and responsiveness of my hands. With my MS I have all sort of excuses I could use not to keep up good horsemanship. But then what good would I be?
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Oh, I did not come from a horse background, in fact my mother was most determinedly against me ever riding. I picked up my horsemanship by reading and listening to horsemen and horsewomen.
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Dear sic2, this is going to take several answers. By the way I love your comments.
On hyperflexion. I once rode a horse that went hyperflexed, so my experience is limited. The horse was a pure Davenport Arabian stallion of very good disposition and powerful though not yet stretchy strides. His owner told me that his dressage teacher told him that the horse was NOT behind the bit even though he was way past vertical. I disagreed (silently). While I could keep a connection with the mouth the resulting "contact" was greatly inferior to that of horses from the same blood group that I trained to saddle using Forward Riding schooling methods. It was marginally better than a Paso Fino mare I helped who was behind the bit, but the Paso Fino mare immediately improved with good riding. The stallion probably would have taken a LOT of work.
In MY riding and training of horses I NEVER accept behind vertical. I train Forward Schooling, and anything even near to behind the bit is totally unacceptable.
This is just the way I ride and train, even though I am real limited now.
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I wrote four blogs on the Forward Seat System. Caprilli, an Italian Cavalry officer developed the basic seat in the late 1890's until his death in 1907. Vladimir Littauer developed a system based on the forward seat of Caprilli combined with the schooling system of the Chilean cavalry. The Fort Riley US Cavalry seat combined the forward seat of Caprilli with schooling based on the French system at Saumar. In the cavalry system, the shoulder-in was introduced only to some horses after about 2 years of schooling.
Collected gaits have no place in forward schooling. A fit, well trained horse can easily be trained to be "semi-collected", but it usually takes an experience intermediate or an advanced rider to do it right. An advanced rider in Littauer's system uses flexions for downward transitions. An advanced rider is also expected to ride his horse on loose reins for 20-30% of riding time, using soft primitive aids, just indications really.
Thanks for your comments. I'm going to bed now. Good night y'all.
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About the vacation. I have a real interesting book about the work horses in Victorian London, England. The average working life of a harness horse was FOUR years before destruction. The Post Office horses lasted SIX years, and the fact that they were given a yearly vacation (I think it was for two weeks) was credited by the veterinarians for the longer working life of the horse.
It is my opinion that competition horses suffer "micro stress fractures" (I'm sure its called something else) which can go heal during the vacation, as well as minor muscle and tendon injuries, little tears. I do realize that with the modern show schedules that this is completely impractical. The horses get to stand in trailers and vans the same amount of time that the Victorian horses got to wander around a pasture enjoying nature (and yes, some injured themselves), grazing, browsing etc..
The horses that got no vacation worked only 2/3 of the time of the vacation horses before being sold down (cabs, carters, coal carts, etc.) for maybe two or three years before being sent to the knackers with their manes shaved off.
People have ALWAYS misused horses. The point of teaching GOOD HORSEMANSHIP is to train people in how to handle, train and use horses so fewer horses are misused.
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Jumping. In the 1950's and early 1960's teenagers were keeping contact over the jump in the McCay (sp?) classes. If TEENAGERS could do it back then, how come professional, experienced international riders can't do it now?
Littauer started using a crest release as a TEMPORARY position to spare the horse the rider's mistakes. He also emphasized that the rider should NEVER lean on his arms/hands because it put too much weight on the forhand. In the Forward Riding System of Littauer et al., ALL advanced riders should be capable of following the horse's mouth in contact over jumps, even large international jumps. He NEVER intended crest release to be used in an A show or international show performance except in an emergency.
I can't do this, but I am disabled with MS. I used to be ashamed of my riding because I could not do this reliably.
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Again, this may take several replies.
Littauer's answer was for people to ride on loose reins UNTIL they had a secure enough seat so that their hands were independent. The riding on loose reins for advanced riders was (is) so that the horse's mouth remain fresh and so that the horse remains obedient under ALL circumstances.
Santini, Caprilli's immediate student and fellow cavalry officer, on the other hand disdained all loose rein riding, including the crest release, and considered it inimical to the correct execution of the Italian seat and the performance of the horse. Littauer, faced with American riders, had to develop a system that minimized the inadvertent abuse of the horses, Littauers students were probably not as good riders as Santini's students. Thus the differences between the two Forward Riding systems.
Please note that there are MANY different schools of dressage riding as well.
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"Littauer's ...understanding of collection is different than that of dressage riders."
Littauer started his riding career under the tutelage of James Fillis, the great early 20th century dressage innovator (who by the way did not ride his horses behind the bit.) In his 1935 book there is a picture of Littauer doing a passage, with the horse flexed at the poll (no, the face is not vertical but the front of the neck IS almost vertical, this is Fillis's influence) with the picked up hind hoof half-way up the cannon of the grounded hind leg and the top of the lifted front leg almost horizontal. I suspect that this passage was as good as any classically trained dressage rider in the USA at that time. Littauer by no means was ignorant of dressage and he was quite capable of riding in collection.
I personally, in the ring, can get a downward transition by twitching each of my little fingers once. Of course when the horse gets more excited I may have to repeat my aids stronger to get my desired result. My horses often do a flexion of the jaw as we come back down. I do not get that flexion all the time, but I have MS with all its problems and thus am not really an advanced rider according to the Forward Riding standards as set up by Littauer. I just try my best.
In fact when I read what advanced Forward System riders are expected to do, I feel as much despair as when I read about what advanced Dressage riders are expected to do.
We do not use full collection in Forward Riding at all, at any time. IF a forward seat rider uses collection, then the rider is no longer in the Forward Seat and must ride as a dressage rider to remain in harmony with the horse.
I depend on my Forward Riding trained hands for the vast majority of my aids, always in concert with my somewhat weak legs. Whether on full contact, intermittent contact, or on sagging reins, I always control my horse mainly through my hands. I use my legs to generate the forward impulse necessary for good riding, but most of the modulation is with my reins. The Forward Seat uses the hand MUCH more that a lot of the modern dressage riders do (at least as they write they do), though maybe not quite as much as the Spanish Riding School trained riders.
And I do love this discussion and value your input. Obviously everyone does not ride as I do!
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sic2--to get to my blog posts go to the click on the Members button on the toolbar right under Share Your Ride, type Jackie Cochran in the search box and click on the magnifying glass icon just to the right. Then click on either my name or my avatar photo when my listing comes up.
On my page, upper left, go to the sixth line under my avatar photo, And click on Blog Posts (27). To read any blog click either on the title or on continue...at the end of the intro. To get to my earlier blogs go down to the bottom of the first page and hit on the Previous posts button on the lower left. The ones on the Forward Seat are on Oct. 11, 18, 25, and Nov. 1, 2009. Most of my blogs are about my riding, in the Forward Riding system, of course!
I hope you enjoy reading them.
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Sic2, I admit that you have infinitely more experience in dressage than I have, and that is your definition of effective riding. But let me tell you a little story.
My first horse, whose training after the first two months was totally in my hands (I was a BEGINNER), and who I rode and schooled according to Littauer and other forward horsemen, was 19, and starting to get navicular. I had always refused to torment him by trying to do dressage (for one thing I could not afford lessons and I know my limitations). One day I was talking to the manager of one of the good stables, when she said she had a good rider, learning dressage (reserve state champion), studying with the best teacher (who I had seen give lessons) that had suffered a traumatic experience with her previous horse and did I know of any decent horse who could be leased as a confidence builder. I told her about my horse, his limitations (really my limitations), the fact that he was only trained Forward Seat, and the fact he was developing navicular. The stable owner and the lady needing confidence came out and tried him. The comments (besides his showing lameness) consisted of gushing about how wonderful my horse was to ride, how soft his back was, how he obeyed aids IMMEDIATELY (Quote--you just have to think the command and he does it), and how connected he was when he moved. Then the lady came back with her dressage teacher (whom the best horsemen took lessons from) and there was more gushing--the softness, prompt obedience, the great contact, the action of his back, his gaits, etc., etc., etc.. After the dressage teacher rode him she told the lady to GET HIM, he was the best horse for dressage the lady had tried in her search for a confidence builder. Since the dressage teacher was decent (I had seen her classes) the lady ended up with my horse.
I was nowhere as good a rider back then, I did not truly understand the coordination of the aids, and I had gone no further than intermediate riding. This horse had NEVER been trained or ridden by a dressage rider before then, all Forward Riding, with lots of loose rein.
After a year and a half, the rider got her confidence back, and decided to give the horse to her baby sitter (breaking her promise to me when she convinced me to sell him.) Her main complaint was she could not get the horse on the bit. Well, when I finally got him back he was ruined, nowhere as good a horse as I had had, but I had learned more, and the very first time I tried to put him on the bit--absolutely no problem--he immediately went on the bit. I spent several months getting this horse back to being reliable and relaxed (most of the time, the damage was too deep and he was too old for complete retraining.) At least his navicular no longer bothered him. they had done good there. I went back to the basic forward training, he stopped starting to rear when upset (just happened once, I do not allow rearing.) As long as I rode forward he was willing to relax and give me marvelous rides, but I could no longer even try to ride him on a truly advanced level, much less with any type of collection. Those dressage riders, trainers, and teachers had ruined my wonderful horse for advanced riding. I know that all dressage riders are not that bad, but I prefer riding a forward trained horse any day, mainly for their wonderful relaxed backs, gaits, contact, and soft response to the aids.
I was ALWAYS envied about the fact that my first horse had a WONDERFUL sitting trot (not collected) with a soft, swinging back. In fact, every horse I've owned had ended up with a good, soft, sitting trot, though sometimes it took me months, with LOTS of loose rein riding, before I would end up with that wonderful soft and swinging back.
So sic2, there are many systems of riding that are educated. Dressage is probably the one that gets to the highest level of training. There are many schools in the field of dressage of how to get there, though there is always the common theme of collection. Dressage is supreme as a method to train and ride a horse in collection. Unfortunately a GOOD dressage horse is usually too sensitive to be ridden by common mortals. (Including me).
Then there are the other systems for riders who want to compete internationally, US Cavalry, Balanced, and Forward are the broad groups. Some of these systems use some dressage with the forward seat, and in my opinion the smoothness and purity of the gaits suffer.
Then there is Littauer's Forward Riding system, which I, suffering from but not diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis, NOT a natural rider (I had trail ridden in South America, and after 4 years I still could not sit the canter), with no money for GOOD lessons or any money for training, followed to ride and train my just gelded (he still had the scabs) 5 year old Anglo-Arab gelding who had 2 months of training. I had not ridden for for 8 years, I never had really learned to ride--yep, green on green. I could not afford to board at the good stables with the GOOD lessons, for the first 3 years, and I trained him completely on my own. Not only did I not get killed, I DID NOT RUIN MY HORSE, and fourteen years later three people into dressage gushed over my horse (who by the way had AWFUL legs) BECAUSE HE WAS STILL RELAXED ENOUGH TO GIVE PROMPT AND SOFT RESPONSES TO THE AIDS and he moved in a connected and athletic manner.
Of course they ruined him, after all they were DRESSAGE riders, and therefore automatically knew how to best train a horse, and according to them it wasn't Forward Riding.
I respectfully disagree.
And I love reading your comments, sic2, and respect your knowledge in dressage. You have the best explanations showing deep understanding, and are delightfully open-minded. I am REALLY enjoying this discussion.
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Permalink Reply by Ann Hatfield on
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Wonderful discussions, thanks everyone.
The change that makes me gag is the "cowboy clinicians" those riding Western, who seem to have suddenly discovered dressage and are now teaching their own version in Western gear. They seem to be teaching badly with dumbed-down, non-standard names for things that were named and understood a hundred years ago.
I have seen a few demonstrations, seen parts of videos, and have never been able to bear to watch a demo clinic all the way through, and certainly not paid for any instruction, so I am no expert in what they do.
Changing the terminology and the changes I see them make in schooling, seems to me to make as much sense as changing in a vehicle the order of the gas, brake and clutch; putting the turn-signal indicator somewhere else and every other control, calling them different names and then expecting all other drivers to be able to drive off safely and effectively in that vehicle.
Is there anyone who teaches Western riding well that anyone knows of?
I was trained in English riding and then rode about the same seat in Western flat classes a lifetime ago in little shows. I ride in a Wesern saddle, or a hybrid mainly, in the hills as it makes sense in rough country for a late-late middle-ager as I ike to think of myself, like me. I school 'English' or riding English in a hybrid treeless saddle.
It is known and documented that it takes about 10,000 hours practice to obtain 'mastery' of a skill: piano, plumbing, hockey, writing, riding, whatever. I think that a decade or so ago, and earlier, people had a feeling that this was so, and were able to commit to time to learn. I think that lack of commitment of time is what is affecting new riders, of any discipline, and driving the awful Western clinics I refer to above. Ann
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