Join up... is it really a good way of training horses?

I just read the first reply to the thread:
http://www.barnmice.com/forum/topics/have-you-ever-had-or-dealt

and it said ...."If you don't know what join-up is... It is basically taking your horse into a round pen and chasing them away from you with a rope... Make sure
they are always at a run and change directions every 10 minutes or
so.... You will know your horse is ready to listen when they show on of
three signs of submission.... 1. Suddenly stopping and facing you 2.
Chewing 3. One ear is always pointed toward you... When your horse shows
you one of these signs, turn your back to them... They should walk-up
to you and either nudge you on the back or put there head over your
shoulder... At this point you need to give them a treat and a little
rest... Then walk away... They should follow...If they don't you need to
run them some more...
It is important to have lots of time to do this, you should not be rushing it... If it has been a long time and your horses is exhausted
and sweat, but still hasn't given in .... Give them a rest and try again
later in the day or the next day...
Also, if you don't have a round pen available to you... you can use a riding arena... You just need to take some boards or sheets of wood and
block off the corners, so that your horse cannot corner himself and make
it hard for you to chase him/her...
Hope this helps!!! If you need more information you can just google it or watch a video of it on youtube....

****** One important thing to know!!! YOU SHOULD NEVER HIT YOUR HORSE DURING THIS EXERCISE!! IT IS A NONE VIOLENT METHOD OF TRAINING, AND YOU
WILL LOSE YOUR HORSES RESPECT IF YOU HIT THEM!!"

I am not trying to be mean to the person that wrote this, I am just using her description for what join-up is, simply because I think that this is the way most people do it.

My question to you all is; do you think this is a good thing to do with horses? If so, why? if not, why?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Shirley on November 16, 2010 at 3:30pm

When I first saw Monty in action I was in awe. Thought it was nearly magic when he';d accomplish what he called "join-up" As I observe this today, 6 years later, I see things that don't seem good to me. IMO! I think the horse in the end has given in and is staying so close to Monty cause that behaviour seems to be keeping Monty from chasing him, which is scaring the horse. This is certainly kinder then the old fashion catch them and sack them out till they are totally broken in spirit so they comply~~ That is if something else doesn't get broken first (Like a leg or neck).
I am personally a bit of a prey animal in personality and I'd find Monty's behaviour threatening. Many times when I see someone training a horse I want to scream "Give him a minute~ he's almost there ~~or he's scared. I also think Monty's body language is a bit aggressive and scary. I just personally think there is other gentler ways of really getting the horse to be with you cause they want to be not because they are afraid not to be.
This horse only took about a 1/2 hour to give-in to Monty but other horses take MUCH longer and end up all sweaty and it appears often to be from nerves rather then from physical exertion.
There's much worse ways to accomplish the same compliance and better ways too.
That's what I think and why.
Interested to hear what others think!
And what our discussion originator sees....

Permalink Reply by Ayesha on November 16, 2010 at 3:34pm

Very good pointss, its so nice to see lots of different views!!. There are so many 'horse whisperers these days' its hard to find which methods are good, or which methods we just need a few more years to discover maybe arent as 'magic' as we first saw them to be.

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on November 16, 2010 at 7:10pm

when my trainer taught me how to join up..... I went to Cavalia and saw the show...... and I went aha!! I get that... it's body language and energy and communication!!

Permalink Reply by Ayesha on November 17, 2010 at 5:07am

I love to train with lots of energy, enthusiasm and movement, rather than using the term 'work' like many showjumpers and eventers do, I like to say 'play' I get fun, energy, and enthusiam returned to me when I decide to do the same. Horses like to play, and so do humans, it's perfect.

Permalink Reply by Shirley on November 17, 2010 at 12:06pm

Isn't it amazing to know that you are doing the begining stages of Cavalia. I remember thnking "We can do this and we can do that" We just need some whispy scarves and pretty costumes and lots of practice and improvement. So much fun!

Permalink Reply by Ellen Ofstad on November 17, 2010 at 7:15am

Hi
I guess that you have figured out that I am not in favor of the method. Several reasons for that attitude :)

First of all; Monty's interpretation of some of the horses signals are, in my not so humble opinion, wrong, and since he influences a lot of people the ramifications of his misinterpretation is far reaching. He simply translates the messages from the horses wrong, and teaches others to do the same.

Second; This is NOT how horses would handle each other, to say that this is based on how wild horses works is again misleading the public. It makes people think that it's OK to handle horses like that.

Third; non-violent? Monty Roberts is neither gentle nor non-violent in the round pen – unless gentle and non- violent is defined as “the absence of direct corporal punishment/manipulation”. To me psychological violence is also relevant.

Fourth; what he says is not what he does. It is easy for me to see that he causes the horse to do what it does, and then he claims that this is evidence of his "language of equus!. Most people will not see this, so he is deliberately lying about what he is doing.

Fifth; because of all of the above I have seen some really bad cases of where it went wrong. People trying this with their horses and with a poor understanding of horses and their language (much thanks to Roberts) they make their horses fearful and stressed at best, aggressive at worst. This is dangerous!

Sixth; People tend to use this method with the wrong horses (horses that already are tame - this was originally meant as a taming tool) and for the wrong reasons (used for some kind of punishment - not as a taming method). When people do it to the wrong horse for the wrong reason and with a bad method it's no wonder that the results are less than great...

And lastly; the join-up can be done in a gentle way that makes sense to the horse and actually accomplishes trust, learning and mutual understanding.

Now, having said all this, I am NOT saying that all work in a round-pen is a bad thing, nor that the idea of a join-up is bad. These harsh words are aimed at the round-pen techniques that Monty Roberts is teaching, as shown in the video clip.

If a person does something wrong with their horse, I don't hold it against them, most people do what they are taught and to the best of their abilities. It's far worse when a trainer does it because it will influence many others, the more well known the trainer, the worse it is (the more it spreads). I got upset with the Linda Parelli clip for that reason, and the same here. Both trainers represents a method that they claim to be natural and gentle. Neither are. That is what is most upsetting to me.

I can argue for every point that I have claimed here, but it would mean a lot of writing, so I thought I would focus on the things relevant for this group; the body language of the horse. That is the main thing here to me and it is what I am basing my judgment on. Having said that, feel free to ask me about the other points, too, if you want to know why I am saying what I am… :)

I will get back with an analysis of some of the body language in the clip.
Ellen

Permalink Reply by Ellen Ofstad on November 17, 2010 at 7:59am

A closer look at what the horse is saying in the video clip…
Within just the ten first seconds

00 26Right from the beginning the horse is showing insecurity about being in the place(ears are held out to the side and belly-muscles tight) and looking for support (staying close to Monty). This horse is tame, and already looks to people for guidance.

01 10 She is not completely trusting, when he steps to the side she moves her hindquarters away, thus protecting her vulnerable parts from him.

At this point he should have walked around (she would have followed) and reassured her that she was OK, and that he meant her no harm. The join-up was already there, she just needed to see that the surroundings was OK and that he would help her out.

Then he moves straight towards her, she backs up and gets stressed by his approach (lifting head high, ears insecure, body tight). She stays with him because she still thinks that he is the safest place (not wanting to be alone in these scary surroundings), but he is attacking her! Why?!

Also his attack is strange; he is moving towards her and not releasing for her response, but while his actions are aggressive he keeps his head down, and that is a contradiction to the rest of his body language. Confusing.

04,22 she starts thinking that she needs to flee from him, but is still hesitant. She shows this by shifting her weight to the side (indicating where she is planning to go) and also with her right ear (pointed to the right, indicating that she is checking out what's over there before she goes there.

05,12 She still stays with him though, if she was a wild horse or a horse that was scared of humans to begin with, she would have been long gone by now, but she is still thinking that humans are a source of support. And the mans posture is not indicating aggression, however he still keeps coming?! Her confusions is seen clearly, her body is leaning away from him while at the same time reaching for him. His focus is not directed straight at her, but he is still moving at her. She is not sure if she should stay or go…

05, 29 The man keeps coming, and he is not responding to her clear questions about what he wants her to do. He just keeps coming, but without the clear signals of "I want you to go away!". This guy is scary!
One of the foals signals that they use to show other horses that they are just a baby is to bend in the knees. Most people has noticed the foal chewing, and maybe even the turning around, but I am not sure that the buckling of the legs is as well known. Hard for a horse to do while moving, but she is showing it here…

She is trying to turn around to give the rest of the signals, and this shows just how threatened she feels. This is the point where Monty Roberts thinks it all begins (with the "start time 00:00" mark)…

Permalink Reply by Ellen Ofstad on November 17, 2010 at 8:47am

The next 20 seconds…

10,14 Now that she is escaping from him, he raises his head and is now looking straight at her. A clear sign of aggression towards her.

11,00 she tried to get into the calming signal used by foals (not just the regular calming signals we have discussed earlier, but the ones used by very young horses when they try to show that they are babies towards someone the initially trust). Here you can see her buckling of the knees and trying to stand still. The rope interrupts her signals. She is punished for showing her fear.
Monty's comment; "There you go"

11, 26 Monty is moving towards the direction she was heading and thus cutting off her flight path. He is at the same time driving her in that direction with the rope and the wall is blocking her movement forwards. She has to turn, and that's not easy when there is no room for it.
Monty's comment; "Oh my goodness"

12, 27 As soon as she started to turn, Monty is there blocking that direction too, by putting pressure right where she is trying to go, again forcing her to change direction.

13, 29 Again he blocks her path by moving in the direction in front of her. In addition he is now even closer. Where is she supposed to go?! there's a huge wall here!

14, 08 As she turns again, he is once more blocking her escape (she is trying to go right; look at his rope thrown in that direction).

15, 03 This time he doesn't turn her, because he is moving in the other direction (to the right, look at his legs) and now he is very close. The horse doesn't know where to go or what to do…
Monty's comment; "That's a pretty wild looking place"

16, 24 He finally let her move in a direction and the horse is quick to use calming signals. Here she is doing both the head down, checking out the ground, and she is also buckling the knees. This is a pretty desperate horse at this point.

17, 15 Monty's response to her "I don't want a conflict/I am just a baby and no threat" is answered with him throwing the rope and chasing her off. "I am attacking you!" is his response… Even in that moment he is at the same time starting to go towards the middle, thus heading in front of where she is going and blocking her path.

18, 27 Here you can see how he has stepped in front of her and she is blocked from moving forwards. She is preparing to stop and turn again as a response and again trying to give him the calming signals.

20, 19 He not only prevents her from turning or stopping, he chases her on, while still moving in a direction that is blocking her movement forwards.
Monty's comment; "So, I say you wanna go away, that's fine, go on away, but don't go away a little, go away a lot".

28, 25 Meanwhile he is constantly heading in front of her, blocking her movement forwards, while throwing the rope at her from behind. The horse tries several times to give calming signals, but has no chance to stop.

Permalink Reply by Ayesha on November 17, 2010 at 11:38am

Very very good observations!! I did notice a lot of what you are pointing out when I watched the video, and I have known him to be a little better at doing join up, but you also flagged some things I had not noticed.

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on November 17, 2010 at 10:31am

I am going to read alot right now because alot has been said..... I just wanted to comment that in learning many things can trip you up... such as vocabulary..... I never learned that joining up was chasing my horse around... I think I would call that driving, or roundpenning, to which I've had many arguments.. why am I roundpenning the poor thing he is joined up already... .... to me, joining up is more having a unison with my horse..... his eyes his ears his attention..... so when I say I join up with my horses, and I do it all the time, I mean that I do go through a daily ritual of making sure we have a connection, we are joined..... I see alot of people thinking that going into the corral, getting the horse on a halter and lead, tying them up, then tacking them up, riding, putting them away and feeding them is a relationship...... to me joining up is a huge part of relationship but it is not for the need of my ego to scare of dominate my horse... merely to ask him to come and be with me.... and how I do that has two methods for two horses..... :) The only reason my trainer taught me this method was because he wanted me to learn to ask the horse to come to me, to do all the work at liberty, and to have a connection..... instead of many of his students that run around chasing the horse that never comes to them.....

I got the same thing from these videos that you did Ellen..... firstly the roundpen is a hideous place looks like a prison or jail... but he is not doing what he says..... he's a guy though.. acting very unemotional, showing his side, not her side at all and never stops when she does the right thing..... but worse than him or even pat parelli is clinton anderson and one day with Oliver and I and a "roundpenning for respect" video my horse and I had a huge fight and it was a big lesson in "don't do this at home." , resulting in a scared, rearing, striking and charging stud colt.... When I read ponyboy, and now your lessons Ellen I saw that a horse is much lighter than this, they want to engage, they are willing and will follow..... thanks for all your insight for the horses sake... :) I am ashamed to realize how many mistakes I've made..... thankfully my horses are still alive and well and wiling to try and be friends still in spite of all of my mistakes.... but relentlessly running in circles and chasing them is not one of them.... I agree with all of your comments Ellen... I believe Joining Up is a wonderful way to have a relationship...... Roundpenning and Joining Up are not the same thing to me.... :)

Permalink Reply by Shirley on November 17, 2010 at 12:02pm

Hey Jennifer, I agree with what you say for the most part about "JOINING UP" and what it should be but the phrase has kinda been adopted by Monty Roberts and his style of training~~ kinda like the phrase "NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP" has been adopted by a group of trainers with similar training techniques with each other. Often when the terms are used these trainers and their techniques come to mind even though the phrases can mean different things to different people.
Monty started out as a kid trying to learn better ways then his fathers techniques which Monty found to be cruel and now over the years Monty is getting criticized by some for his ways being mean. As a kid he took some good beatings from his dad for using his gentler ideas. I have seen Monty's movie where he lets his trained wild mustang loose and then the horse comes back to him after having some time in the wild with wild horses. It's pretty touching.

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on November 17, 2010 at 1:32pm

Hey Shirley:

and horse whispering..... ") now that's a phrase... everything is so open to interpretation. I think all of us are on the same page here..... searching for the connection..... I must say in my search I did learn from Chris Irwin how to be effective with what I am saying...... omgosh I inadvertently did everything wrong and made my horse a bully..... I think..... anyway, with his guidance and the videos that he put up here, along with Ellen's videos I have really learned alot about 2 way communication...... we learn what the horse is saying.... and we learn what we are saying....