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Am I Just Too Old Fashioned?
I am beginning to wonder about horsemen and horsewomen insisting on "playing" with their horses.
When I started out riding, people did not play with their horses. It was heavily discouraged because it ENCOURAGES DISRESPECT. If you wanted to get your horse fit, you WORKED him properly, schooling him in a well thought out program.
If all a horse does around you is play he starts thinking that he does not have to work at all unless he feels like it.
You have to TRAIN a horse to obey you.
Am I just an old fashioned fuddy-duddy?
When I started out riding, people did not play with their horses. It was heavily discouraged because it ENCOURAGES DISRESPECT. If you wanted to get your horse fit, you WORKED him properly, schooling him in a well thought out program.
If all a horse does around you is play he starts thinking that he does not have to work at all unless he feels like it.
You have to TRAIN a horse to obey you.
Am I just an old fashioned fuddy-duddy?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on
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Hi Shirley. Wow, good questions.. thanks for taking the time to even care enough to help me.... Oliver and I have known each other since he was 8 weeks old..... :) We spend time every day, I don't know how much but generally at least an hour or two.... not all at once. He lives in my back yard with his uncle Toby, my 27 year old gelding.... um, Oliver has a professional trainer that has taught him lots of GOOD stuff. Steve thinks Oliver goofs around with me and thinks I'm funny. :) That I am a joke actually.... when Oliver acts up, I quit asking.... and go onto something else, or I say, fine, that's okay, cya and I leave and he looks deflated that he has no one to play with. I do not play his game, he must play my game. I have worked on his issues for about a year now, which are my issues, not his, he knows how to be a horse, LOL ..... my trainer and I got into it when Oliver charged me... I got scared, the adrenaline led to a not very nice conversation with my trainer about how I have to "make him" and I had to go through all the growing pains of being able to actually do that my way.... nobody can give me experience but me, and I am slow... .... and as a first time Mustang Wrangler of a four year old colt, I do the best I can.... my big thing is to get him on a line now.... last week, we were inside my area, which is pretty large for two horses and he just ran away and into a stall..... I can't tell if he is naughty or scared... that is the Wednesday afternoon $64,000 question..... I had myself hynotized and I've worked alot on myself to not be mad at him... all the stuff I do, I've done over 5 years... but I don't want to be mad.. it was not my intention To adopt and rescue a baby, orphaned, wild, horse... and be pissed off all the time, although I've had every emotional imaginable until lately when I decided to enjoy him and quit being depressed about him and give myself a break... Steve says Oliver is ready to hand walk, he is ready to take outside of the arena, ride bareback and get a saddle on.. he is that good of a horse, after 4 years of professional training.. I am the one that needs help.... and I've worked on myself ALOT, and I'm okay with working on myself more.... I love Chris Irwin, his videos.... sometimes from home they don't load, so I watch them at work.... and I'm learning horsenality this month and I joined the SAAVY club for the fun of it.. I join a club every year and this year it is the Parelli club....
but EVERYTIME I have him on a line he screws with me by turning to the outside, getting the rope out of my hands and then standing perfectly still.. he does not run away.... I do not engage. I don't even try anymore.... I want to run his ass around with my bag and my whip and see if a few turns around will calm him down..... or I want to change directions and see if he quits it and I am also gonna try putting it on and not doing anything, giving him no communication and see if he will lower his head and relax... with the rope closer like someone suggested... ..... I'm gonna have to see what works. :) my trainer told me to give up the bag and the whip though if you read that part, so again, I'm at a disadvantage... :) I'm between knowing what I think I should do, being afraid to go against what Steve thinks, getting Oliver worse off, you know all that b.s. doubt stuff..... :)
I will read the belowmentioned article... and I will be safe... I'm happy to report that so far Oliver and I have not been hurt ever...
Thanks again, Jen -
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Permalink Reply by Geoffrey Pannell on
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OK Jennifer, time for some strong language!!!!!!!!!! I just read your last post. I had no idea this horse is a COLT!!!. Well no he's not, at four he's a STALLION. Do you have a death wish!!! PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT TO TRY AND LEARN HOW TO WORK YOUNG HORSE, IF THE HORSE IS A STALLION!!!! ( I think I've worn out the exclamation mark button). Stallions and colts should be left to the experts. If you want to keep educating this horse , then geld him!!! If you don't want to do that , then give him to your trainer Steve to get him going thoroughly before you get HURT. It is only a matter of time before this happens , go and find a gelding or a filly to learn how to do it . Now I know what your saying to yourself, " Oh no, Oliver wouldn't hurt me." Well , take my word for it , he is learning disrespect every day and soon you will get clobbered! With Entires you just don't have the margin for error, you mush be at the top of your game every second. I'm sorry this will upset you, but I'D RATHER YOU THOUGHT I'M MEAN , THAN SEE YOU GET HURT!!!
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Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on
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I agree with Geoffrey completely. Stallions are different, and stallions can be very dangerous.
Stallions will always test physically weak handlers, it's just the way they are.
Geld your horse. I had to once, it was the best thing I ever did with him. It is kinder for the horse in the long run.
Get him to a trainer that will get him to WORK and obey.
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Oh boy.. here we go... :) you guys, breathe.... let me review and start over.
Oliver is 4
He is a mustang
He was an orphan
I adopted him when he was 8 weeks old
Steve has been here the entire time. He has done everything professionally.... EVERYTHING, liberty, lunging, side reins, long lining, driving, backing, bareback riding, the whole bit....
the horse is professionally trained
He was gelded at 9 months old...
the problem is me, not my horse.. and it isn't a problem, it's a journey. :)
It's gonna be okay. :)
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One thing I noticed from your pictures is that Oliver's eyes look a lot smaller than your other horse's eyes. In Linda Tellington-Jones' book "Getting in Ttouch" on page 32: "Small eye (if very small is sometimes referred to as a "pig eye"): Such horses are frequently inflexible and slow to learn. They do badly under pressure and become very resistant. A small eye can take on a sunken look when a horse is in much pain. The sunken appearance will disappear when the pain is relieved and the eye will appear larger." On page 60 "Pig eye" (very small): Introverted, a slow learner", and "Small, sunken eye: Withdrawn, slow mentally, may be result of pain. On page 64 "the small eye generally signals an uncooperative attitude."
We are all feeling very puzzled because this horse has the training not to act like this! This horse may be in pain from something (ulcers???, back problems???) and being resistant because of his pain.
Check for pain first. If the horse is in pain for some reason, and the pain is relieved, you will be able to tell because his eyes will look bigger than they do now. From what you say I do not think he is a hopelessly slow learner, in fact he sounds pretty smart.
I am not saying YOU put him into a state of pain through any action or inaction of yours. This all could well be not your fault at all, but the result of an undiagnosed source of pain making your horse uncooperative, resistant, and VERY reluctant to move.
And you are so right about it being a journey.
You sound like a promising horsewoman who is being faced with a problem that all the usual training methods won't resolve. I have been scratching my head alot over you and Oliver!!! And why do I think you are a horsewoman instead of a wannabe? Because you are blaming yourself first!
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OMG... sit down. Jackie..... you are a genius. Pat yourself on the back, get yourself something to drink and let me tell you something. I don't know if I put this up or not already, but I had oliver read. I don't want to go off on a tangent about the animal communicator thing, but I love Lydiahiby.com because she does a body scan.
3 weeks ago she read him, from a distance at a horse event I went to to see her. I took a photo of him.... my horse had previously displayed some behavior that was worse than usual. I think it's posted here somewhere, I get lost here..... but, even my trainer was scared for Oliver that his dangerousness would lead to something bad.... so i called lydia. I've had my horses read 4 times each and it fascinates me.
seriously, are you sitting down, you are going to amaze yourself. I am so inspired by you!!
She said immediately that he had a headache. A migraine by now, a black migraine.... she told me a story about how he got TMJ. If I go into the story it might inspire conversation about the possibility of his story being true and I want to keep it clinical. TMJ is such an interesting thing for Oliver to have because I have it too. On my right hand side. My doctor diagnosed it over 5 years ago and I did nothing. Well as Oliver is my mirror, you can think I'm a freak if you want to, his is on the left hand side. So interesting. From afar, not even with my horse she asked me questions like this and explained the symptoms. She said he will play with water, want to chew, extend his jaw, be generally pushy and forward with his head and in some more severe cases, it affects their hooves. On the side of the TMJ the hoof can begin to cave. NO WAY.. so all of this is going on with Oliver, plus he's just crabby ta boot and even my trainer is worried, like I said. And he's all into, yes, please call Lydia... cuz we already had the farrier out 4 times to repair the cracking wall on the inside of his front hoof. It's like everyone was wondering why he was falling apart. and even you sweet Jackie, you took the time to share your knowledge with me and you are so dead on!! And concerned for him... Lydia so helped me. She is so awesome that eventhough she read at least 15 horses that day, when I saw her at 12 noon she asked me if she could come over and meet him after the shindig was over. :) I was jazzed. Steve agreed to come too.. and help Oliver... and my friend and daughter was there and Steve's assistant who Oliver has tried to mow down.
She came with a light stick.... simulated accupuncture and Oliver really released some pressure. She taught me how to look at his head and decipher his headache days. Maybe one nostril is higher, maybe his ears are sensitive. She showed me to put my hand up around his nose and see the degree of pushiness he has to the head.... she said they do that at seaworld... if the dolphin pushes hard, it's in a mood of don't ask for too much and if it pushes softly it's in a good mood. :) Right away the 2 days after the last treatment, he got happier and more movable:)
Lydia and I spoke last night by phone and she said he is feeling better, enjoying rides out with Steve and I noticed right away, call me crazy, when I put good energy and healing energy out to him, his hoof has held. The other three feet are now showing more signs of wear as if his body shifted. He said his left hip is out too and with me it is my right side hip from when toby dumped me and I fell on my tailbone.... and I have headaches all the time too. Anyway, like Shirley said, I have to work out, which I do and I am trying to be more healthy and physically fit for Oliver.
But you are so right. He was like physically falling apart, poor kid.... now my farrier, my vet, my trainer did not detect this TMJ thing. we all worked on it too. I had his teeth floated by a vet he tried to mow over, nice.... but doctor travers dealt with Oliver and Oliver backs down right away, but if he can push you, I am afraid to say at this point he will... Now, if he doesn't have a headache every day and we can start accupuncture, how awesome will that be...
I was diagnosed with tmj by my medical doctor, not even my dentist. she said it is so dibilitating... and can cause so many problems... and I just went on with it and on with it... last week I had to get a crown because I ground and broke my tooth. dr. deter made me a mouth guard.... it felt a zillion times better just to have the mold in my mouth and my jaw was straightened.
How wierd that Oliver could be suffering from the same thing. I am sorry, that is just wierd... so, with everyone here too, Oliver is in a very interesting circle of people that are trying to figure him out. :) Lydia is into Parelli and it was interesting to see her work with him. She wasn't scared of him at all and he tried to scare her. She shushed him and steve led him around till he relaxed both emotionally and physically in her presence. I loved it...she smiled at him, talked to him, told him he wasn't all that, and he was so busy trying to be the boss of her and she is the ONLY WOMAN that has ever stood up to him besides me and lived to tell the tale. ... and she did it with a rope and her energy and she pushed his feet around.... blocked herself, used all the good body language and she got him to back down... she also showed him he didn't need to be protective of me.... and that I was okay with other people. a nother long story...
I hope this makes sense... cuz I am really lovin that you were scratchin your head and thinking about us and that you care about Oliver too.. :)
Just know that I am on it. so into this mustang that I have rescued and has told me many other stories during out talks, which I find fascinating. I think I talk about it in my blog. :)
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LOL... :) me too sister. but I just keep driving the car forward to see what is gonna happen next.
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There is always a reason. We just have to find it. Very good work Jennifer, you never gave up on your horse when so many people would have. You should be very proud of yourself.
Sorry for the long list of solutions. We tend to go down logic trees, and when nothing comes up we just have to learn to look elsewhere for solutions. This just points out the importance of considering all the LITTLE things that may not seem important at first. Horses always have a reason for what they do.
Again, good work Jennifer. Your patience is amazing, with both horses and people. I am proud to have you for a friend!
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Wow, thanks... only a few people claim to think that way, so thanks for noticing. I don't have very many friends that are patient with me, so me and Oliver bore them eventually... :) so guess what else? I can't believe I missed this stuff.. just goes to show that this might be a lesson here in life. I read Linda Tellingtons book too and went outside and stared at his head, toby's head, their ears, etc.. LOL a few months ago actually.... he gets wrinkles over his eyes too. :( this morning he had them..... but his ears were forward and he was in a good mood... he moved forward really nice and listened... what Oliver does that I find fascinating, is he corrects himself and looks for the release... he's actually fun to train.... um, but his hoof looks scarier.. I am trying so hard not to be freakin out..... everyone that isn't wierded out, just send him some good vibes. he picks up on energy... he could use it.... thanks Jackie for being so cool.... I knew there was something to figuring him out.... and everyone let me do my own thing and find my way.. so that is why I am patient with people too. funny my husband thinks I am impatient..
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Yep, time for even more patience. But now there is hope, we finally heard what Oliver has been trying to tell everybody for a looong time.
I find that it can take about a year for a hoof to grow out completely. You just keep working on his TMJ, keep up with his hooves, and be patient until the newer, healthier hoof grows out. I do not know if this will help, but when I put the mare I ride (Mia) on hemp powder her hooves started growing out faster, I guess it is all that good protein in an easily usable form. Plus her coat is gorgeous now! Of course that means trimming the hoof more frequently, but I do not think that you will mind this so long Oliver improves. The Gamma linoleic acid (GLA) in the hemp powder also acts to minimize inflammation. May this help you too.
I am sending Oliver good vibes and energy. I think he is happy that finally people understand what is happening. Of course my previous training advice no longer holds, ignore it for now. I had not realized how much you had done to try and help him.
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I hadn't gotten a recommendation for anything for his hoof, so I will look for that stuff.... thanks....
his mane is even growing out a bit.. it was all rubbed off..... you are right. He was trying so hard to tell us something.... but I've had him read 4 times and he hadn't brought it up till now.... so we are not long behind what he needs I hope. :) -
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