Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jan Jollymour on May 25, 2010 at 6:14pm

Jennifer - you're NOT OLD!

Old is a state of mind, not a state of being. My Mum's 72, and rode this past weekend at our local dressage show. I rode too, and coached through the whole thing, and I'm 53! You're not old!

I think you're getting on the right track here. You've identified assertion as something you're lacking, and I can tell you, it's something you can learn. I spent the first 20 years of my life being afraid of life, and afraid of putting myself "out there", just as you feel, but you can learn to be stronger in yourself, and you can learn self-confidence.

Bear in mind that none of us have all the answers. I think guys like Chris Irwin and Clinton Anderson (and the guys who paved the way for them, my contemporaries in this game, people like Buck Brannaman, and Ray Hunt, and Dave Jones) have some of the answers, just like I have some of them. Anyone who tells you they have all the answers is someone you need to detour around....my number one personal coach, who's coached the Dutch Olympic Dressage Team, says there's not enough time in one lifetime to learn everything about horses, and I know he's right. The most important thing is to keep learning, and to stay open to learning.

You have come a long way in a year. In terms of learning to train horses a year is very little time - it will take the whole rest of your life, and mine, and we still won't know it all. For me, that's part of the appeal, that I have to keep learning, and keep stretching myself and my internal boundaries. I have to accept internal discomfort, and discover what more I can do.

With regard to Cesar - horses are not dogs, but "packs" are not that different from "herds" (think about that concept). Both have leaders, and both operate on the principle that the strongest, most agile, most confident, etc., gets to lead the pack/herd. A pack, just like a herd, can be 2 individuals - you and the animal. Cesar's work is based on that idea, and on the premise that the humans in the equation must take the role of pack leader to maintain control, order, confidence and safety in the pack. Just replace the word "pack" with "herd", and you'll be OK. None of it is based on force, BUT dangerous behaviour requires very clear corrections, and dangerous behaviour in my book includes behaviour which puts the animal at risk, as well as the person, or sometimes instead of the person. I don't want my dogs hurt because they didn't do what I requested when I requested it, and the same goes for my horses. When I say "whoa" it means STOP RIGHT NOW, because perhaps the next step or action could result in injury. Think of this in terms of Oliver's long term safety, as well as your own and that of others around Oliver.

No one who keeps working with horses can be classified as a "wimp". Knowing you need to develop more assertive behaviours and projections does not make you a wimp. I would much rather deal with the "wimps" in my clientele than those whose instinctive responses are too harsh, and unforgiving - those are really hard to work with.

The clicker book to read is the one by the killer whale trainer. It's Shauna something, and her whole name escapes me at the moment. Just like in the rest of life there are imitators...ensure that you've got the right book and the right expert - often easier said than done!

I don't think you got offended either. It's really hard to put yourself out in public and ask for feedback. I have to do it all the time in the clinics I teach and the clinics I take, and I do understand that it's an act of faith. You are on the right track!

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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on May 25, 2010 at 6:34pm

Hello.. I have Shaunna's book..... :) I am the type of a learner that I read the whole book, then go in chapters and I knew the first step was getting him to not just run me over for the food... :) You are a great teacher. I can see that it is something you enjoy and that is why I come back with responses..

I think when I read Shaunna's book again I am going to make sure that I understand the reward..... is it before the horse licks and chews or after?

Another thing I was working on but I'm ready to move forward now was getting both my horses to feed off endorphins instead of adrenaline.... I try not to do things that make him throw his head up.. once he's kind of pissed, he is scary. I must admit... I don't know how big I have to get to get what I want........

When I first started working with Oliver I noticed he literally had a chip on his shoulder..... and a body stance of almost defensiveness.... I love his soft side. I raised him from a baby yet I never touched him or coddled him or even hugged him because he'd jump on me... I am so happy to be close to him it makes my day...... pushing him away from me has always been an issue but I've done it over 1200 days now since I first met him and I did not treat him like a kitten. .. and it's hard to be tough on a baby anything. I feel like I'm at the point where he's not really crossing into my space anymore due to Ponyboy's defining my space.... at least not as much, but I've got to take his space more to really be effective.....

Maybe you guys will have ideas..... maybe someone will have a breakthrough idea here..... you know how some horses are really flighty? When you ask them to go away they just run off? This is not the horse..... he is such a statue. I learned recently though how to get around to his tail.... did you know, before when I would try to go for his tail he would block me with his head and then try and move me with his shoulder? For me to tap him on the butt with the rope and to get his ASS over was like a big breakthrough... now that's my new tool of discipline, disengagement... but I'm still not real good at it.... but at least it gets his feet moving and a lick and a chew.... he licks and chews around me all the time.... then yawns.. I thought that meant I was getting somewhere in his believing that I was the leader and that when he was following me he was accepting it too. :) See how easily confused a woman can get? LOL...

My trainer tells me that nobody works on herd dynamics as much as me.. god I remember when I couldn't be in the pen with both of them at the same time for petesakes. Oliver would run my sweet Toby horse away from me.... my trainer threw me in there and told me when I was liberty lunging to single out Oliver and make him behave... ... now i can separate them, get them in a stall if I want to at liberty and stuff like that so yay!! I feel the progress... for sure... oh and another thing is that until I have more control at a walk I see no reason to go any faster..... I want to feel him go from a walk to a trot to a canter and it's nice and controlled... once I lunged him and it was terrifying when he started running around and then right at me... I feel with the body language work I can at least ask him not to come into me and he doesn't.... but how to get going faster, yikes, scary .. :)

Thanks for telling me I'm not a wimp. and that I'm not old.. cuz every day I work on getting younger so Oliver and I can trailride, get a trailer, go camping..... that's why I was hoping he wouldn't always be viscious around other people.. makes for alot of loney camping trips....

What are your favorite things to do with your horse Jan?

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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on May 25, 2010 at 7:05pm

It is so cool that your mom is riding at her age.. I love that..... good for her... imagine where I will be in 22 years... :) woohoo!! She is an inspiration!!

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Permalink Reply by Shaiarabs on May 25, 2010 at 10:11pm

just watched your video.. mate you are doing well!! nice horse!!

only a couple of points to ad to Jans...there is not enough of your space being defined....there is no bubble of space around you... he should only be allowed in that personal space when being asked..

he is giving you a lot of token resistance..and that is.. the head turning away..being in your space..not moving when you have asked..and you are asking for too long...it should be ask ask tell..so ask ask then push him away, even if it means you physically push him with your hands,, then make him stay out of your bubble and stand there until you ask him in.. then ask him in as a reward and rub his forehead

try to answer power with power.. and the reason I say this one is the mouthing resistance he shows... its not on!! that should make you big and cranky and send him out the instant he shows it.. its not the sort that most people see as baby mouthing or gumming and its not him thinking which he gives by chewing and tongue out, what I see there is one step before biting because its a game your a toy..you need to match it... again ask ask tell... not so much asking..

from 3.30 - 4.40 it took you over a minute to get him to move out of your space! too long mate not assertive enough.. once he didn't listen to the ask ask.. then get large and send him back..

be clearer with your signals.. there is not enough definition between what each one is and that it has been asked..

you can make signals seem large and obvious then soften them later on.. but it must be direct for each step.. if it means breaking it right down to literally one step at a time then thats what you do..

I think you are doing fabulous!! and are well and truly going the right way about it all, its just all about refinement and finding the right aura and energy to give off which as Cesar says is calm/assertive, I can see calm oozing from you but not enough assertive. do watch Cesar a bit more.. it is invaluable either in dog or horse.. when you see it.. think laterally how it would apply to horse and how you would implement it differently but to get the same results.

check out the settings on youtube you might be able to keep your videos private and password only...

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Permalink Reply by Shirley on May 26, 2010 at 1:26pm

What great progress you are making! Are you enjoying the journey and feeling the successes? Bet u r. Hope so!!!!!

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Permalink Reply by vickie lawson on June 10, 2010 at 11:41pm

hi jennifer. i liked your video. i personally would try for less aids-rope twirling. just like when we ride we try and use the quietest aid possible to get the response and only increase its strength when they ignor us. but i didn't see danger, or even real boredom. if he was truly bored, he would have left your side i reckon and gone and done his own thing. he stayed with you, ears up, head showing interest through his flexion and eyes. sometimes i think we worry too much about progress. i do realise what you said before about how he acts with other people- i guess your trainer in the video is accepted by oliver! keep up the good work.

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Permalink Reply by Shaiarabs on May 25, 2010 at 9:30pm

nice post Jan!!

keep it up Jennifer.. communication is the key... the more we talk about it the bigger the picture we get of you and your horse and you get of whats happening!

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Permalink Reply by Jan Jollymour on May 25, 2010 at 10:43pm

Thanks, Shairabs!

Jennifer: it's not a question of how "big" you need to be (I'm 5'2", and 110 llbs). It's a question of your internal energy and determination, and the direction of your core. You need to "push" Oliver out of your space (and Shairabs has given you some help with when and how much) with your chest, shoulders, and abs. That usually doesn't involve touching him, it's more about taking his space and making him move out of it with your strong intentions and body language.

When you're working towards the clicker reward system, you don't have to wait for him to chew. Reward the desired behaviour the second it happens, don't wait for a secondary signal. That does require that you are very clear in your own mind about the behaviour you wish to elicit, and that you have thought through how you will recognize it. I would start with moving Oliver one step out of your space, by moving assertively (maybe even aggressively the first few times) into his space, and when he takes one step away from you, reward him. If you wait for a secondary signal, the link between your action and the desired behaviour becomes unclear.

Also, and this is going to be a hard message for you: if you are longeing Oliver (even at walk) and he makes a move towards you without invitation you must be quick and tough about the correction. Charging at you in any way, at any speed, is absolutely not tolerated. If any of my horses did such a thing they would be hit very hard, very fast, just as they would be by another horse were they to charge. The hard thing when/if that happens is to try to remember to take offensive action before defensive action - they are very quick to recognize the difference. I have horses who come in for training who never ever challenge me on the ground, and it's because they know from the moment I approach them that the behaviour will not be tolerated. Their owners have endless difficulties, because they keep leaving the door open....after the first major correction horses rarely need a reminder, IF you're fast enough and tough enough.

I think Shairabs' suggestion about the YouTube password is a super one, and I didn't know it was possible to do that. You might be able to invite assistance when you'd like it and from whom you'd like it, rather than having to put yourself out there for everyone to see. On the other hand, sometimes the best help comes from unexpected quarters!

I hope we're helping, Jen!

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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on May 26, 2010 at 12:44pm

Of course you are helping...... I feel emotional right now because of the comments, but that's okay..... You gave me an assignment. The same one Pony Boy Gave, Steve Gave.... get him the hell out of my space....

I'm afraid I invite him in accidentally all the time..... when I need to make sure I'm giving him the signal not to come in.... part of my confusion is that I blame myself that I'm not asking right... then when he doesn't respond I don't want to whack on him if I'm the one that screwed up... even when Steve is here, he says you should have corrected him right then..... and then he'll say, what are you doing, you invited him in and now your yelling at him for not staying away...

I'm a spaz..... :( ugh... LOL...

If all I work on is inner assertion maybe I can do something easy and effective to make myself feel better.......

my horse Toby, he is so super sensitive... if I ever whack on him he flies away... if I whack on Oliver the hunkers down and takes it...... also, if he is only a 5 on the dominance scale I only want to be a 6 not a 10.... if I get too big right away he starts getting bigger and I can only get so big.....

ugh.. I'm just rambling here to talk to myself actually at the moment because I have to go outside and work with him and I wish I didn't...... ugh... LOL....

Thanks guys..... I have a little neice that is sort of scared of Oliver after he did his thing when she was here.... I didn't wonk on him in the video because I think it would really scare her..... I wanted to show her a soft gentle side of him so I made the video..... god knows if I made a video of me wonking on him and getting him out of my space I would never put it up on utube.... there is no way....

His lack of motion is based on my lack of assertiveness.. plain and simple..... I can see me taking a whole year to get there too so I might bore you all to death... it freaks me out just thinking about it.. but I know it will be liberating to accomplish it..... and Oliver will be so much more stable and happy..... ugh.... it's all about me as usual. :)

Thanks for noticing my calm side.... I appreciate that you noticed it cuz actually that was my last years work I did.... to at least not be scared every minute I was around him. I had to practice working on what I was doing..... .... when I first started these exercises and I turned my back on him to ask him to follow, he was going to bite me..... ugh..... now he is pretty nice even if seemingly bored.... I can see why people put stud chains on and push horses around with their faces....

Last year I worked on trust and the result was the video I put up.... now this year I have to work on respect.... and all the hard groundwork that goes along with it..... I will not ride him at all with the relationship that we have now..... so I know this will take me some time...

I'll be back if I have any progress... if my face is in the dirt though I won't be able to get to a computer....

it's okay, laugh.... :)

Thanks, Jen

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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on May 26, 2010 at 2:18pm

Rule number 1 when practicing assertiveness... start small... find something that you are willing to defend that is important to the horse..... like the tackroom where the carrots are..... and the water bucket...... I even got a trot out of him..... woohoo!! when they were standing by the tackroom door I as inside with the cats..... I had my whip, the kind Chris Irwin uses which I do prefer to the swinging rope and I went right to tell...... told him to back away and then gave it to him repeatedly until he moved... the second he softened I let him go...... he didn't come even near me anymore...... and then he started dozing with his head down...... that was it..... what do you make of that?

I was putting water in the bucket and when he came near me I sprayed him with it so hard and his head flew up and then he turned away, all the way around and faced me and licked and chewed.... what do you make of that????

then I used my whip and he moved with the energy and I didn't have to wonk on him anymore..... that was good.. then I quit..... while I felt brave....

so kids, don't try this at home unless you start small... I did not keep on with it.... 20 minutes was good for me... :) I was mean and bossy. I hope you would have approved....

what do I do if he paws? He used to do that? what does that mean in his body language?

thanks, JL

JL

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Permalink Reply by Shirley on May 26, 2010 at 2:47pm

I think that Oliver may have responded in all of these ways (except the pawing) because he was feeling safe, relaxed, confident and certain of what you wanted by your very direct and clear direction. Could he have been relieved by the directness of your cues?
What do you think?
Sometimes when we are riding and I give Cash a stronger cue and let him know I really want him to do a certain thing, I can see him relax, chew and look very contented even though he's having to work harder. Some truth to the idea that they need a job? Sometimes being brave and strong enough to do what we have to do for our horse isn't easy for us. I do think it's a learned skill and it takes time.
Look at all your progress! Pat yourself on the back.

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Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on May 26, 2010 at 3:08pm

Hey Jennifer, I finally watched your new video.
Good work. I saw an interested but a little bit bored at first horse doing what you wanted him to. I interpret the swinging rope somewhat differently, it sort of looked like you were having a conversation with Oliver that "resembles" the conversation I have with a horse when training with the bit on contact--like yes, not quite that much, yes that is right, not quite so fast, go this way, a little bit faster, straighten out, stretch out some there, come back to me, good boy.
Anyway I hope you get the idea.
A few times he started to offer something else than you wanted, but you corrected him effectively.
You may have shrunk back once or twice, Oliver reacted, but then you corrected yourself and sent Oliver back to doing what you wanted him to.
Hey, woman, I am impressed. Way to go.

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