Training behaviour vs emotions

This is a comment on this comment,
http://www.barnmice.com/xn/detail/1773158:Comment:275440

I am posting it as a separate topic because I got into a new subject (again!) and since that topic got a lot of comments I thought I would start it up separately here.

I agree that the word respect is over used and misplaced, and that we should look at it more like a training issue. But... it's important to remember that it's also about the horses emotions. We can train a horse to respond in a certain way, we can teach new habits, but I think that in many cases the key is to change how the horse feels about something. Change it's emotions about a situation and the behaviour changes too.

I am sure that we are on similar ideas on what to do (positive training) but I just wanted to point out that the same behaviour can come from different reasons. For instance a horse that doesn't stand for mounting; it can be in pain, it can be afraid, it can be trained not to stand (accidentally), or it can be a lack of training. The different reasons demands different approaches. In other words, figure out the why before trying to train the behaviour, it's not always a matter of something the horse has been rewarded for.

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on September 25, 2010 at 12:32pm

Hi Ellen.... you are so wonderful to spend so much time here helping... I wanted to comment something that my girlfriend and I started talking about that led me to an experiment with Oliver..... remember I've explained his orphanism and that he is very close to me physically all the time.... which my trainer is forever getting on me for... can't help it... he and I do well when we are together close... so I'm thinking, so how am I going to lunge him and stuff if I can't get him off me? hm.... my friend said, make it "fun" for him to be away from you..... then, in another thread I posted how he wouldn't move for 3 hours.... but stood right by me... well, for about 18 months now I guess I've worked on this..... more than just standing away from me I wanted him to be okay with it and have a positive experience with it..... hm...... let's see, tapping him really hard doesn't work, throwing his head up and trying to push him away doesn't make him happy it pisses him off, (like with the clip on the end of the halter)... hm.... what do I need to do to ask Oliver to back up, stay away so that we can slowly start working futher apart... in fact in one of my videos he actually understands my body language when I push him out and it is the very beginning of lunging for us without him being crabby about it..... oh, I know what I might try.... a clicker..... well, a clicker is a bridge to food.... so the first step is food..... my friend Patti and I, (she actually showed me your whole thread here about 2 weeks ago, "did you know there are calming signals?" and now here I am addicted to this thread....) that was when I developed the buckets around my arena and asking Oliver to go to them.... and look for the treat.... slowly I was able to push him out to the bucket without him taking offense I guess it was or standing still like, "no you will not push me away" anyways, my boy, he really responded well to the clicker.... first I pushed at his shoulder with my stick and when he moved back I clicked... and said, "where is back up Oliver".... with this tool I taught him to back away from many things.... and I was able to modify his behavior... now he backs up from us on his own, of course looking for the right answer..... but so interesting that instead of being a forward horse, he is more into backing up... and he thinks on his own now.. you can see his brain moving... all I have to do is say, "where is my back up Oliver?" now the reason why I put this here is because I think he is more comfortable being away now, little by little... he is understanding that it's okay to be "out there" by himself... and then I ask him to come back in so he can rest and relax...... he actually only stays away for about 3 seconds... more and more now I ask him to stay away, 3 then 4 then 5 then 6 seconds... baby step.... he waits for the click and then he comes back... it is so interesting.... but I think he stays with me because that is just who he is... he is not a very confident horse..... my trainer gets him to lunge because he knows how to control Oliver... but in my training I'm learning that he is taking a preference to me.... :) and yesterday it was evident when he started acting up when Steve was here.... so interesting when horses express their emotions during training... let me see if I can find a clip for you... :)

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on September 25, 2010 at 12:58pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk_gOwCOK6o

oh no!! I just learned how to get a video off my phone... watch out, I will be a video taping fool now... ... !! the more I watch it the more I think maybe I should have rewarded his behavior when he first walked off but he is funny isn't he??? .... I didn't give him any body language to back up.. he is just starting to figure it out on his own that that is what might work, LOL....,

Permalink Reply by Shirley on September 25, 2010 at 1:20pm

I think Oliver is backing up not due to your body language but your verbal direction in this case. I think you said 'back-up? Wow he didn't just nip either, he had his mouth pretty wide open but then didn't clamp down very hard.....thank goodness! Ouch for Toby if Oliver had followed thru with that bite!!!
How did you get the movie video onto the computer. I'm wondering if I can use a memory card in the phone and then put the mem card into my digital /video camera and from there I know how to load it onto this site. I THINK MAYBE???? But how did you do it?
We are having a barn party at the stable tonight sith about 30 people 6 yrs. to 60 so should be fun and interesting. Lots of different human personalities brought together by horses.

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on September 25, 2010 at 1:45pm

Oliver ALWAYS does that to Toby..... he doesn't use his teeth as much as he uses the sheer force of his neck to push Toby DOWN.... he had his legs buckle underneath him the other day it was horrible..... this is why I don't get him jacked up because he will get more forceful with my sweet gelding... but don't worry, Toby will push him away with his butt or kick him if he gets much worse and if it really gets out of hand I will merely isolate Oliver and remove him from the equation... Oliver is so insecure that he understands timeouts and isolation from his herd if he's a jerk.. orphanism again... he is pretty much interested in pushing everyone away from me. I merely instead of punishing him just get rid of him and he totally gets it.... I am working on it with him... slowly but surely to let him know that it is not acceptable.. but I would never over correct him on a video that was going to be public on utube.... for fear of someone getting the wrong idea.. but I've gone after him too..... my trainer told me that when working with 2 horses it is really good practice to "manage" the younger horse, or maybe the more juvenile horse is a good word.... this is what I meant when I was talking to Meghan about Toby trusting me more when I don't let Oliver do stuff like that to him.... but managing Oliver is sure a full time job... and yes, I taught him "backup Oliver" because I wanted him to start modifying his own behavior... he totally corrected himself here and waited for the okay cue..... the whole reason for the video here was to show that he is sort of getting it.... now more and more he stands out by himself and waits to be invited in instead of being a jerk and trying to push me and Tob around... also, I practice on myself being the calm cool collected one instead of letting his jerky actions get me emotional..... where as before maybe I'd either be scared of him doing that to Toby or mad at him or chasing him around... i merely try and manage him more by correcting him with moving his feet...

I have an Iphone 4..... and I just learned that in my options there are a few things.. it says I can email the video to myself but it also had a "send to utube" feature... hm... cool... so I sent it to utube and then when I went to utube I found it..... how cool is that? I bet the party tonight will be fun....

Permalink Reply by Ellen Ofstad on September 26, 2010 at 3:02pm

In one of your videos you use the clicker, but don't give him a reward. You also praise him and sometimes you give him a treat after praising him without clicking him, other times you give him a treat after the click. Since you mention that clickertraining is about bridging behaviour and reward I am wondering why you click him so much without rewarding him? You rewarding system is a little confusing to me...

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on September 26, 2010 at 9:30pm

the click eventually begins to replace the food so you can work longer and longer.. the click is the reward... he looks for the signal to increase his behavior of giving the right response.. this was my first time too... please remember, I am not trying to show anything really, I'm just practicing and exploring and if you see that I'm not rewarding him correctly, that is the feed back I look for too for myself.... I see that when I watch it... I think his motivation to try is really what I'm excited about from a horse that wouldn't move at all before... :) Like your videos, you are explaining things because you know they work, these are just videos I made for myself to watch and I put them up for you guys... that's all... when you very first start with clicker training, youclick, treat, click, treat and then just click...

Permalink Reply by Ellen Ofstad on September 27, 2010 at 4:36am

Would you like me to anazyse what I see in the clip? From what I can see your horse follows your body language very nicely, but you give some conflicting signals that I don't think you are aware of sometimes. With analyze I mean going through it and using the timecodes and tell you what I see, just like I did with the clip of me and the islandic horse.

Permalink Reply by Ellen Ofstad on September 30, 2010 at 8:35am

Just to make it easier for others to follow this discussion I am posting the clip I am talking about here (and he is a really pretty horse to look at, too!):

It is a little off topic, but since I brought it up I think I should tell you my opinion about the clicker and rewards. I hope you don't think of this as me attacking you in any way, I am just trying to help and I figured you wanted feedback on the clips you posted.
I disagree with you in what you wrote about clicker and rewards, not saying you are wrong and I am right, just saying I disagree:)

Here's my opinion:
A click is a marker that bridges the behaviour and the reward. When I teach the horse about the clicker I teach them some rules.
1: the click is a signal that shows them that they are going to get a reward.
2: the reward will not come without the click.
3: I will show them what behaviour can earn them a reward

These rules don't change. I always reward after a click (the reward may vary, but it has to be something the horse wants). What DOES change is what behaviour gets the click. When I teach a horse something new and he is trying to figure out what I want, I click the horse when he guessed right. When the horse has learned what I showed him, and no longer wonders if it was the right responce, I no longer click for that behaviour. I can praise it, but won't click it unless the horse gets insecure about the command (they can forget or get confused, too).

What usually happends is that I simply increase the criterias for getting a click. In the beginning they will get clicked for any little attempt, and then, as they start to understand, the criteria changes.

The challenge for me is to work with the horse at the right difficullity level;
- making it enough of a challenge so that the horse has to think about what I want (that gives the click).
- not making it so easy that the horse doesn't get any challenge (boring, and no click)
- not making it so difficult that the horse doesn't have a chance (frustrating and no click)

My point is that the click it self is never the reward, it's always a marker signal, and if it's not followed by a reward it is soon ruined as a marker.

When I watched your clip I see that you are using praise more as a marker signal for reward than the clicker. Usually you follow up on excited praise with a reward, (and I think that is a good thing) but sometimes you don't, and that seems to be a bit confusing to Oliver.

The clicker seems to have more of a "well done, keep going" effect. It doesn't interupt the behaviour, but he understands that he is on the right track.

I also use a "keep going" signal. I use praise to tell the horse it is doing well, but that it's not supposed to stop and get rewarded. Then I use the click to tell it "That's it! thats what I wanted, and you just earned a reward".

It really doesn't matter what signal is the marker and what signal means "well done, keep it up", but it does matter that those signals aren't mixed up (or it gets confusing to the horse).

While we are on the subject...
Have you seen Oliver get exited (ehem... easier to see in geldings and stallions than in mares - quite visible under their belly) when you are teaching him something new using the clicker?
If so, ever wondered why? and do you know what triggers it?

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on October 1, 2010 at 11:47am

This is probably my second or third time I I ever used the clicker..... so I'm sure we have a long long way to go... I guess I just noticed that he was more motivated with it.... his feet were less stuck and we are both learning together here.... like I said... my videos are not for "hey, learn from me".. it's more "hey, look what me and my horse are learning"... until I started learning endorphine release he never dropped.. he was very stiff.. I think he's getting excited in general because he's interested.... I think he's comfortable in our relationship so he's starting to drop... now he drops whenever he sees me and I ask him to do something...... the more assertive I get in my training, the more he drops....

I'm sorry if I'm confusing you, my horse or anyone, that's why I make the videos so I can watch them and learn.... I really wanted to show people here how our connection is..... he and I are building our our relationship.... that's really all my videos are for.... he and I are like in 2nd grade... :) I also started using my voice in case I lost my clicker..... so he'd know that he was doing good... just another bridge signal.... thanks for the comments on my lovely horse.... I was more interested in attitude than performance here.... :) he seems interested.... geez, that took a long time to figure out his motivation button.

to anyone following this conversation, make notes of what Ellen says..... I found that this clicker training was very beneficial to ME... am I acknowledging the right response? sometimes I do and sometimes I don't......

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on October 1, 2010 at 12:44pm

Hi Ladies.. and gentlemen..... I want to bring up another point in this part of MY training..... 5 years.... 2 years with this horse..... that I am working on MY emotions.... I want to be the calm trainer, where as before I was the frightened stupid trainer.... one thing I want to say about my gelding, is that yes he may be confused..... both of us are alot..... but emotionally, the amazing connection that I am going for is confidence for both of us, more clear communication, but above all else, we are patient and kind to one another..... I feel, in his mood, that he is working on staying patient.... see, these videos are our practice sessions... we are practicing.... but emotionally, we are both trying to stay focused, consistent, patient and kind to one another.....
and connected by energy
he used to paw, then rear from heavy pressure from ME... because I wasn't asking right.. so why not slow down and as we get more used to each other we will build the energy build the energy until he is able to handle higher pressure
from ME.... ..... jmo Maybe someone else could work with him that knows what they are doing and not crash... but you know what they say about green and green... ... I'm practicing showing myself that he will respond to light pressure and the person that I am... .... you are seeing me only 2 to 3 weeks into my experiment... oliver is Patient..... that is all I'm going for.... attitude not performance... both of us calm so when we need to be we can come back and connect in stressful situations... my journey is about ME.... and Oliver is just helping me learn.. and thankfully when he is confused, he is still so nice to me.... I mean do you see him trying hard? or am I missing something... I really think he is a great horse..... for such a large animal I think he is trying real hard to keep it together during all of my mistakes... I think he reads my intention that I am not trying to make alot of mistakes. I am trying to see what works so that I don't make mistakes... :)

Permalink Reply by Ellen Ofstad on October 1, 2010 at 1:23pm

The only thing that I am a bit confused about at this point is whether or not you would like my input on your videos?

I see a lovely horse that enjoys your company and really wants to understand you. I see a lovely lady who loves her horse and really wants to understand.
I also see some confusion in the horse, due to some communication problems, but nothing dramatic, so I think you will do perfectly well on your own. I also see some confusion on your part when it comes to interpreting your horse, but again, nothing really serious.

If you want me to let you know what I see, I would be happy to try to help you, but at this point I am not sure that you do. And that's OK of course! You have a trainer that you are very happy with, and I am so glad about that :) most people aren't that lucky!

In other words; I think that you are doing well with your horse. I am not seeing any major issues here. I also understand that your videos are made for you to watch and learn from, and that is something I tell my students to do, too. I think it's the best possible way to understand our body language and the horses reactions to it. Most people gets a bit surprised the first time they see themselves on film while working with a horse, they don't look quite like they thought.

What I am trying to say is that I am not out to criticize you, your horse or your way of doing things. However there are some details I see that I think could help you on your way, but I don't want to force anything on you. I am offering because you posted the videos in the discussion I started, so I was under the impression that you wanted feedback.

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on October 1, 2010 at 9:53pm

I am happy for feedback... I'm not good at answering questions maybe..... cuz I don't always know the answer as to what am I trying to do.. I'm just trying stuff... since I had the videos, of course, I thought it would be fun for me to know what he's saying because that is the reason why I put up the videos, to anaylze his body language and what you think of what he's saying... .... I sometimes do get confused about what he says and anayzing it would be fun... thanks :)