Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Ellen Ofstad on September 24, 2010 at 6:33am

I copied my previous comment from the body language discussion here, but there were other comments before my reply. I hpoe those who wrote comments to this clip will copy their responses here, too:)

Sarah: as you can see from the text I had originally posted to this video you see we aren't that far off from each other in what we are seeing.

I have of course the advantage of knowing the history of the horses and I also saw what happened afterwards. Some of the details on the horses are in my previous posting, but in addition to this I want to share some other details:

The horses had only been together for a few days when I filmed this. Every once in a while the grey horses offered to scratch withers with the paint, and the paint really loved that. Despite those nice times you can see how he is acting.

The paint had recently been bought and moved in with another herd, where he was harassed pretty much the same way as he is doing with the gray here. Then he was moved here and we placed him with our horses. The first few hours he was careful and shy and kept away from the other two, but when he felt more sure of them he started pushing them around as you can see in the clip. It was worse in the days prior to this film clip (I think this is day three).

In the following days he got gradually nicer, and they spent more time grooming each other. After about a week he stopped attacking the two other horses all together. He also became very dependent on them, he got pretty hysterical if we took out one of the other two, especially the gray in this clip.

The gray seems happy that the other horse behaved better (he was pretty stressed out by him that first week), and he would hang with him, but never followed him around. The paint continued to follow the gray everywhere he went.

Watching these horses made me think a lot about the words dominance, leader, follower etc that we use with horses.

When I saw what happened between them (and that is apparent even in this clip) is that the grey horse is the submissive, but he is also the leader! He is the one that takes initiative, he goes first and decides what he wants to do. He never asks the other one to come along (on the contrary, he'd rather the other one left him alone, since he was unpleasant to have around) but never the less he went first and the other one followed.

The paint is a very dominant horse and also unpleasant in his behavior. He was also a very insecure horse (was a rescue case before he got to the stable he was at before coming here). He was scared of things, people and also other horses, and in my opinion that is the reason he was acting this way. I think he was being a bully to show the other horses that they couldn't bully him.

Since the other horses didn't meet his aggression with aggression his fear of them went away, and there was no longer any need for him to bully them in order to feel in control. The fact that they instead met him with kindness (like the grooming) made him feel accepted and happy, so he changed.

The really interesting thing is that when we look at the theory of many natural horsemanship trainers, we are often told that the horse that moves the others is the leader. The alpha. The boss. That this is the role model for us to use!

The problem is, horses that act like that will certainly get the other horses to move away from them, but they are not likely to be followed by the others. The other horses will be happy if they go away, who wants to hang out with a bully?

So, what kind of horse do the other follow? well, not always the same one, it kind of depends on the situation. But it is a horse that the other ones wants to be with. It is the "popular one in class", the one with good social skills.

Like the grey one here. He is not looking to become a leader. He is not dominating anyone, all he wants is to have a good time, feel good and hang out with friends. He doesn't want a fight, he wants "peace and love" :) And that was just what the paint wanted, too, he just didn't trust him at first.

There is of course a lot more to horse interaction that one can find in just this little clip. Having said that, there is enough here to challenge the whole concept of dominance and leadership. They certainly don't appear to be one and the same...

If I am to choose a role model from one of these horses based on how I want to be around horses... I will chose the grey. If I am to follow the common view of natural horsemanship (the leader is the one that makes the other move its feet, he is in charge, the boss, the alpha) then I would have to act like the paint.

Who is following who? doesn't that tell us who is "leading" and who is "following".

Any thoughts?

Permalink Reply by Kim Allaby on September 29, 2010 at 1:09pm

I am so glad I found this group because I have been struggling with many of these questions too. However, what do you think of Monty Roberts' saying that were are in partnership with the horse , however we are the controlling partner with 51% of the voting shares? I think partnerships need someone to lead and have a vision and a goal for the partnership. I think working with horses is about positive, confident leadership and trust, not dominance. Thanks for the clip it seems to show that perfectly.

Permalink Reply by Ellen Ofstad on September 29, 2010 at 1:19pm

Kim:
Your questions are difficult :)
I didn't know that Monty Roberts' has said that, but I haven't studied his techniques. From what I have seen him do, both live and on film, he is acting more like the paint in my film than the gray one... To me he acts in a dominant way and I can't really see the "partnership" thing you mentioned, but then again; I haven't studied him enough to have the whole picture or to understand what he means by that term.

When it comes to this words; I don't think horses has the same view on leadership as we do; I don't think a leader is the same thing as we refer to as the "boss".

Permalink Reply by Kim Allaby on September 30, 2010 at 2:22am

Some horses are dominant, some have good "social skills" etc. I think you have to deal with each horse as they present themselves to you in the moment when you are working with them. They can change from moment to moment. This is where as we interact with horses we have to know why we are doing what we are doing, what we want to achieve and how we are affecting the horse. The goal is to have a happy willing horse and a happy willing human.

I don't have any experience watching herds of wild horses, and only limited experience with domesticated horses in herds, but do you think that any domesticated horse really wants to lead? It seems to me they would rather just hang out and eat. I have noticed that horses on pasture seem to interact differently than horses with piles of hay or buckets of feed. Your horses were moving around from hay to grain. I think that fact changes the dynamics a bit, as well as the fact that the paint was a rescue.

My guess is that horses' social skills are affected by many things; their human experiences, as well as their breeding being two. I deal with Thoroughbreds and know the various "lines" and you can see certain behavioural tendancies carrying through from the stallions and the dams.

You certainly have got me thinking and I will be paying closer attention to horses out in the paddocks to see who is the leader., and why and how they got the role. I will also be watching myself more carefully to try and more correctly assess my impact on the horse.

By the way, I think that we humans end up corrupting our interaction with horses because we can't seem to be happy in the moment the way animals are. We are thinking about the way the horse was or the way we want it to be. We have to let go the need to control the horse by force and learn to work with it, and let me (Miss Control Freak) tell you that's not so easy :)my mare was teaching me how to do that and a new gelding is following up with the lessons :). You will help me interpret the data the horses give me in a new way. Thank you.

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on September 24, 2010 at 6:57pm

boy, I'm not sure I know for sure...... what do you think of that outside turn that Viggo had Bravo do? at 1:03.... hm..... I've had different training as I'm sure we all have that one leader is the one pushing and one leader is the one the other one tries to follow... I think Viggo is the dominant horse, but it sure seems like he doesn't want little Bravo to get too far away..... Bravo is very calm and Viggo is so insecure.... I would want to be Bravo.. he seems much more sure of himself than Viggo does..... the film is so funny sped up.... like I said, I'm really not sure.... who the leader in horsey terms but in visual terms the leader is Bravo, the follower is Viggo, the dominant horse is Viggo and the submissive horse is Bravo.... the submissive horse thinks the dominant horse is pill which is why he tries to get away from him.... what do you think has developed as they spend more time together?

Permalink Reply by Ellen Ofstad on September 30, 2010 at 6:23am

Kim wrote; Some horses are dominant, some have good "social skills" etc. I think you have to deal with each horse as they present themselves to you in the moment when you are working with them. They can change from moment to moment. This is where as we interact with horses we have to know why we are doing what we are doing, what we want to achieve and how we are affecting the horse. The goal is to have a happy willing horse and a happy willing human.

I agree :)
The issue I am trying to raise here is "what are good social skills for a horse?"
I used to believe that it was the one who moved the other horses that was the leader of the herd (the boss, the alpha etc). I now think it's not that simple.

I am thinking that there really isn't a "leader" in the herd at all... The horse that the other follows is the one that takes initiative, and what horse it is will change depending on the situation, not what we think of as rank.

I don't see horses going in front and then turning to the others and telling them to follow. They go, the others might notice and follow along. If they don't the one that went will soon return. If they do, the one that went doesn't need to return.

Arguments over resources aren't common amongst wild horses. There is either food everywhere, or little everywhere. No buckets, fences, gates, hay etc. to fight over. When they do have discussions the more aggressive horses will take them, but that doesn't make them a leader, it means that they can win an argument.

For a herd to function as well as possible they need to cooperate. Social skills are important, and bonding is a vital part. The mutual grooming indicates that this is important, it strengthens the bond between the herd members. We see how they differ between their herd members and others when we let a new horse into an established group.

Social skills are about avoiding conflict, keeping peace and getting along. Fights and arguments is a risk, they can get hurt, and that is not a very smart thing for a prey animal. Preserving energy is another important part, as well as being aware of their surroundings. It makes little sense that they should spend a lot of time arguing.

So why do we see so many arguments amongst domesticated horses? First of all, we make resources an issue. The group are usually not a family. We mix the sexes in a way that wouldn't occur in the wild (not to mention making up a new sex by gelding most males). They don't need to move around in search for food, nor do they usually have enough space to move as much as they should. On top of that they usually don't have a good social upbringing (in a herd with both parents, some other mares and babies) and a lot of social skills has to be learned.

Under those circumstances it would be a mistake to look at their behaviour and thinking it is the natural way of the horse. Having said that, we need to be able to understand the domesticated horse, our horses aren't wild! We need to give them an environment that they can be happy in, but since they will be with humans it's important that they learn to be with us from the beginning as well.

I have worked a lot with horses that during their first years has had little or no contact with humans (and the little they had wasn't a great experience). These horses never seem to quite trust humans, not FULLY, and that makes their interaction with us very stressful.
On the other side there are horses that has had very little contact with herd life, and that has given them lousy social skills with other horses, and that of course is also a huge stress factor.

Permalink Reply by Ellen Ofstad on September 30, 2010 at 6:27am

Kim wrote:
I don't have any experience watching herds of wild horses, and only limited experience with domesticated horses in herds, but do you think that any domesticated horse really wants to lead? It seems to me they would rather just hang out and eat. I have noticed that horses on pasture seem to interact differently than horses with piles of hay or buckets of feed. Your horses were moving around from hay to grain. I think that fact changes the dynamics a bit, as well as the fact that the paint was a rescue.

Like I said I don't think that horses in general thinks about being a leader:) they just want to eat a little, relax, get along, have friends. Real sixties Peace&Love kind of thing. If you are with a group of good friends, who is the leader? Someone gets an idea, and the others might think it's a good one and go along with it... Or not, in which case you agree to do something else. If you agree to the suggestion, does that make the person that came up with the idea a "leader"?

Some people are opt to make suggestions more than others, and if they are fun to be with people are more likely to follow their suggestions and people want to hang around them. Other people are less likely to make suggestions, but they are happy to go along. Does that make them lower ranking? Some people aren't nice to be with at all, and we tend to avoid them.

If we come across an aggressive person, what is the best thing to do? The socially smart person tries to avoid conflict with them, they might yield to them, not out of any respect, but just because conflict is unpleasant for everyone. I know a girl that is sweet, but when she drinks she wants to argue with everyone about everything. I now avoid social gatherings with her when I know there will be alcohol involved.

I think leadership in a horse herd functions pretty much in this way...
(minus the drinking... he he he)
And it is also what I see with the two horses in the clip. The paint is insecure and tries to assert himself in a pretty dumb way. He just doesn't know how to just get along, and like you said, that he is a rescue horse might very well be a part of it. I don't think that the food is the issue here, if it was, why didn't he just stay by the trailer where there was hay? He had previously been attacked by other horses while eating, I think that tight place by the trailer made him nervous, and that is why he gets aggressive there. Nerves and aggression goes hand in hand.

The other horse in the video is not trying to lead at all, in fact he is trying to avoid the other one. He tries with calming signals and when the other one doesn't respond to that he simply tries to get away from him. He goes away and does his own thing, but the other one follows him around. Like I said in the text to the video, what we don't see in the clip is that the grey sometimes scratches the paints withers. For about a week I watched how the grey constantly avoided conflict, yielded away and met the paint with friendliness or tried to get away from him.

They grey is one of the few horses with a herd upbringing and he is at home, so he feels very safe. He is therefore a better representative for natural horse behaviour. To me, the most interesting part is that he really succeeded. After about a week the paint completely stopped showing aggression, and started acting friendly instead. The lesson here comes from the grey one; avoid conflicts with horses, show friendliness and get them to trust you so they can feel relaxed around you, and then their defensive behaviour will go away because they don't feel that way any more. I have tested this theory and it works amazingly well...

Permalink Reply by Ellen Ofstad on September 30, 2010 at 6:33am

Kim wrote:
My guess is that horses' social skills are affected by many things; their human experiences, as well as their breeding being two. I deal with Thoroughbreds and know the various "lines" and you can see certain behavioural tendencies carrying through from the stallions and the dams.

You certainly have got me thinking and I will be paying closer attention to horses out in the paddocks to see who is the leader., and why and how they got the role. I will also be watching myself more carefully to try and more correctly assess my impact on the horse.


He he, the big question of genes vs environment:) I agree that all things comes into play. I also think that we have to keep in mind that WE are NOT horses, and that they don't think that we are. How they function socially with other horses is not how they will be or feel about us. We can never be the heard leader (nor would we want to spend all hours of the day with them like that would require us to do). The horses have a relationship with the other horses, and another relationship with us. While we can't be the herd leader the horse can follow us, either because they want to be with us (we represent something they like) or because we have trained them to follow us...

We can choose to get them to listen to us the way the paint does, by moving the horse around and showing dominance. Horses will listen to that for sure, and since most horses don't want conflict they will probably submit to it and try to not upset us (thus getting us agitated and aggressive).

You mentioned Monty Roberts earlier; the join up that he uses in the round-pen is using that philosophy. He moves the horse around in a fairly aggressive way (not saying abusive, just that he will put on as much pressure that is needed to get the horse to move away, and when the horse responds by going away it is reacting like it would if another horses acted with aggression. Just to clarify what I mean by aggression here)

I think that this appeals to humans because we need to feel in control (like the paint). The dominate theory plays right into our fears, and justifies our actions. By moving the horse we control them, and look! The horses submits! You can get them to follow you around, too, if you just start out in a small arena so that the horse learns it has no escape. The psychology term "learned helplessness" comes to mind... But it sure can look like partnership.

Why don't the horses fight back? Remember the clip with Linda Parelli? Why didn't the horse fight back or run away? Because horses tries to avoid conflict. They try to diffuse the situation. When we are agitated the horse knows that we can get aggressive, so it tries to calm us down, tries to tell us that they don't want to argue with us. Thus the calming signals... If we don't recognise those, or even worse, think of them as a horse not having any respect (like Linda did in the clip) we will end up treating the horse very unfairly, and it's certainly not a good basis for a good relationship, or in other words leadership.

There is an alternative... If you get the horse to feel good when he is with you, he will want to be with you. Simple, but far from easy:)

Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on September 30, 2010 at 10:59am

This is very interesting.
I have wondered about learned helplessness with various horse training techniques, both old-time and current.

Permalink Reply by Ellen Ofstad on September 30, 2010 at 12:43pm

Don't forget that this is just my opinion. Most trainers disagrees with me about this, and it's OK to argue against me:) I am hoping that this group can discuss these things, it shouldn't just be about what I think.

Permalink Reply by Kim Allaby on October 1, 2010 at 10:21pm

Thank you for you very thoughtful replies to my thoughts. I think that trainers that tend to allow their egos to rule them, and who don't know the various signals the horses are giving out make life tough for horses. However horses are such cool creatures that they adapt to the "ignorant" humans to get along as you said. No wonder such a large number of performance horses and foals have ulcers!

I thought that one of the foundations of the Parelli method was to start with the "friendly game" and to have the horse want to be with you? Which is what you are advocating (I didn't see the Parelli video you are referring to).

Looking forward to the continuing discussions.

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on October 3, 2010 at 12:35pm

:) I think your theories are right on spot.