I just read the first reply to the thread:
http://www.barnmice.com/forum/topics/have-you-ever-had-or-dealt

and it said ...."If you don't know what join-up is... It is basically taking your horse into a round pen and chasing them away from you with a rope... Make sure
they are always at a run and change directions every 10 minutes or
so.... You will know your horse is ready to listen when they show on of
three signs of submission.... 1. Suddenly stopping and facing you 2.
Chewing 3. One ear is always pointed toward you... When your horse shows
you one of these signs, turn your back to them... They should walk-up
to you and either nudge you on the back or put there head over your
shoulder... At this point you need to give them a treat and a little
rest... Then walk away... They should follow...If they don't you need to
run them some more...

It is important to have lots of time to do this, you should not be rushing it... If it has been a long time and your horses is exhausted
and sweat, but still hasn't given in .... Give them a rest and try again
later in the day or the next day...

Also, if you don't have a round pen available to you... you can use a riding arena... You just need to take some boards or sheets of wood and
block off the corners, so that your horse cannot corner himself and make
it hard for you to chase him/her...

Hope this helps!!! If you need more information you can just google it or watch a video of it on youtube....

****** One important thing to know!!! YOU SHOULD NEVER HIT YOUR HORSE DURING THIS EXERCISE!! IT IS A NONE VIOLENT METHOD OF TRAINING, AND YOU
WILL LOSE YOUR HORSES RESPECT IF YOU HIT THEM!!"

I am not trying to be mean to the person that wrote this, I am just using her description for what join-up is, simply because I think that this is the way most people do it.

My question to you all is; do you think this is a good thing to do with horses? If so, why? if not, why?

Views: 2121

Replies to This Discussion

Jennifer, I'll ditto that!
I actually think that Monty was the first to use the term join-up, and that others has copied him, but I might be mistaken about that.
Whatever his father did or didn't do is not very relevant, (and not at all to the horses he's training or to his students horses that they are training).

The video made by Monty Roberts with a wild horse given to him by the BLM was one of the most stressed encounters I have seen. The wild horse demonstrated every level of “high stress indicator” including foal chewing and that is a rare thing for a grown male horse to do!

I don't mean to seem harsh, but this trainer hits a nerve with me. I am not very keen, to say the least, over his round-pen work, but that is nothing compared to what I think about his treatment of Shy Boy, or his use of the dually halter. It's probably not a good idea to get into that with me ;)
I don't think I meant to defend Monty's practices. As I've said previously, I don't care for his methods that I have seen.
I watched the video about six years ago. Don't remember much but I what I do remember was the seemingly nice end that the mustang comes back to him after being set free. I should watch it again now with more experience under my belt and see what I can see that obviously displeases you. Likely I'm not gonna like what I see now since my heart seems to go along with what you seem to feel. So, I have a question: Why did the horse come back to him?
As far as what his father did, I just thought it was an interesting tidbit & I have no knowledge of his dually halter and since you obviously really don't like it, I'll take your word for it and not spend time researching that.
Thanks for sharing with all of us.
and lastly, a secret here for anyone that is learning joining up to following...... the secret is in catching the eye...... and not letting it go...... turning the eye in towards you, the nose, the ear, the foot....... with no attachment. I play the invisible string game.... because to me, the joining up is in the disengaging of the hip and the turning in to face you.... that trust is not easy for all horses..... whereas for other horses they need to turn away and do an outside turn...... now, roundpenning is a respect exercise not a trust exercise to ME.. anyway, I gave up the roundpenning word because I don't even have a rounpen and because I think it is not a good tool for all horses..... but notice the video of Monty Roberts, or when you are working with your own horses, or even Ayessha when she explained to us the reason why she doesn't like this method.... because it makes the horse turn in and face you..... now that is interesting too.. Monty Roberts never bent or suppled the horse which is how I've been taught... .... with my one horse he does it because that USED to be when we were done because he would blow me off........ and my other horse would turn in and face me because he had no forward motion....... but my point is that joining up is when you can move the hip around...... then the horse, lowers his head and licks and chews..... my version of Join up is: Earth to Toby, Earth to Oliver... please put your thinking cap on.... re JOIN the program take a step over after I go for your tail and oh, your head goes up and your eye is on me.... ..... and I learned no matter what my horse is doing that I do not want him to do if I can go for his tail to ask him to raise his head.... take off the pressure and reward, take another step towards the hip, OUT of the KICK ZONE, catch his eye and ask him to follow....... thank you guys, get away from that and come over here....... now over here, now over here, now over here...... we practice and practice and practice..... gently easily whispering to them to come over here..... where it is better than where you were... and now they pretty much have started doing whatever I ask gently and nicely.... joining up makes us the alpha... whatever that means to you... if you learn joining up and you learn it correctly, I believe you have the horses mind...... trust....... and that leads to the bonding that we are all looking for. Even when I read the very first sentence of this thread a few days ago, I never thought Joining Up was chasing my horse around.. though chasing A horse around, depending on the horse can lead to turning, facing and licking which I think some trainers call Joining Up... :)
We all have our way of working with horses. One thing I have noticed that you mention quite often is that you want the horse to lick and chew.

That is a sign of stress from the horse...
Is not licking and chewing a sign of release of stress in a horse? "I"M getting it now!" That is what I was taught and thought I was observing when watching many horses be trained.
I understood it to have to do with stress but I thought it was a good thing that they were coming off the adrenalin of stress.
Oh boy, more to share! Very interesting stuff.
I had always been told the same thing, Shirley.. This ought to be interesting!
Well maybe we can see as a group.... if the horse licks and chews... and you leave him alone... as in take off the pressure, what does he do next.....

mine toss their head, lower the head and then blow heavy out the nose and then they will yawn and stretch..... and then if I am lucky laydown and roll... and they drop their boyparts.

maybe all of that is stress in the horse. I would love to know.. I will tell you what I was taught by my trainer....

when retaining information if you are teaching your horse something and you move quickly through the routine do you find that they retain it? I was told that the release is the key to the exercise.. that until they lick and chew they haven't understood and you should not move forward they are actually processing the information with a physical signal. ...... that we miss the lesson of making sure that our horse understands if we do not wait for the precise moment when they relax, lick and chew...

Now, Ellen, I'm not saying that licking and chewing is not a sign of stress. I am saying that in my interpretation, I was never intentionally waiting for my horse to lick and chew because I wanted him to have more stress... it was my understanding that he was explaining that he understood what I was asking when he licked and chewed.... I've heard that from every trainer ever....... so that's a new one on me.... explain why you think that and how you know it to be stress from the horse..... that would be interesting and I am openminded and sincerely asking.
When I ride on a Sunday I play around with my boy. He follows me without me even asking! :) Sumtimes if he is frisky and since he is an ex-racehorse, I put him in a riding arena and put my arms up and click, and when I do this, he knows he is free. So he hightails it and gallops and bucks and has fun 4 as long as he wants, then wen he wants to go home he stops and trots up to me! :)
I would love to see that Nicola.....
Nicola: Oh I love this! Sounds great!! I like to do this too but the barn that I am boarding at now has strict rules about not letting our horses run free in the indoor or outdoor arenas. Cash has gotten excited a few times and pulled away from me on the lead when I'm playing with him and acted like this and I do love to see it but in my case it's scary too cause he has the lead dragging with him. I'll have to try this in his pasture in the evening when the horses come in for the night. That's not as pleasant though cause the footing in the pasture isn't soft on their feet like in the arenas. They probably don't care but it concerns me a little when they get to running as fast as they can out there. They do it on their own lots of times so it should be okay. does he ever look at you like you should come run and play with him when he does this?
Bye for now.
On the licking and chewing....

Sorry about dropping this as a bomb like that when I really don't have the time to get into a full explanation about it. In order to not leave you hanging I will post a few quotes from some Equine Behaviorists that I have found mentions this (I am aware that most trainers says the opposite, just like with the calming signals): so I thought you might be interested in hearing this from other people than just me... The quotes are just a small part of the article, I focused on the parts that mentioned the licking and chewing.

--------------
When a horse in a round pen is chewing and licking its lips American trainer Monty Roberts rates this as proof of the success of his work, that will gain him the respect and the trust of the horse. Robert’s interpretation: The chewing and the licking is a sign of respect and relaxation of the herbivore horse. This theory is one of pillars of Roberts’ allegedly non-violent Join-up method.
How do equine ethologists and behavioural scientists interpret the chewing and licking? Does it always signal relaxation? How gentle is Join Up really?


Dr. Barbara Schöning, Specialist in Animal Behaviour from Hamburg, Germany
From a very early stage the foal shows chewing and licking, the head can be lowered at the same time and the legs bend - similar to the suckling at the udder. Later this eating behaviour becomes a social behaviour that signals submission and appeasement during conflicts. Behaviourists believe that the empty chewing (bruxism) not only restrains the adversary’s aggression but also calms and relaxes the chewing one, in the sense of a so called displacement activity.
If a horse shows this kind of behaviour, there is a reason for it: it feels threatened, which means it is stressed and therefore shows a behaviour that in its opinion is adequate in order to avert the threat. As it is impossible to flee in a round pen it is left with the options to attack, to surrender or to appease.
That is where drama comes into play: situations like those that Monty Roberts creates are for most horses incomprehensible. Why (from the horse’s point of view) does an unknown person put on massive pressure in a situation where nothing important, in the understanding of the horse, is at stake?

Dr. Francis Burton, Brain Researcher and Behaviourist at the Institute of Biomedical & Life Sciences of the Scottish University of Glasgow.
I think the horse is already stressed by the time he is “licking and chewing”. This action is caused by a previous adrenaline release. The simple physiological explanation goes: being made to flee - increase in circulating adrenaline - dry mouth - licking. This means a horse may lick and chew following a fright, in which situation it surely cannot mean “I’m a herbivore, and if I’m eating I can’t be afraid of you” – the interpretation given by Monty Roberts in join up.

Lesley Skipper, Equestrian author from the USA. Author of the book “Inside your horse’s mind - A Study of Equine Intelligence and Human Prejudice”.
She owns eight Arabs, Hanoverian and Draught horses. I have often observed chewing and licking in horses who are anxious about something as evinced by their body language. In some cases it may simply indicate that they are thirsty. This illustrates the need for caution when attributing specific meanings to particular gestures or facial expressions as these can vary according to context. To be fair, Monty Robert’s pupil Kelly Marks does inform people that licking and chewing can signify anxiety, and she also warns that join up is not suitable for every horse.
The problem I have with many so-called natural horsemanship methods is that it seems to be based on some very limited observations of free-ranging horses and much of it pertains to stallions rather than mares. The result is that the training methods adopted are based on very simplistic assumptions, which are not necessarily correct.

Mary Ann Simonds, Wildlife and Range Ecologist, Equine Behaviourist and Therapist.
In 1987 she wrote the Guidelines for Managing Wild Horse Stress for the American Bureau of Land Management (BML) and she is the founder of the Whole Horse Institute in Vancouver/Washington.

In working with many wild horses, I have observed that at first their lips are tight and they are fearful. As they start to let go off their stress, they often will lick and chew - this is however more a sign of relief than of relaxation. But horses will lick and chew, too, when they are in a high state of stress with eyes rolling back, sweating, pawing. But in this situation it demonstrates, I believe, just a way for the horse to release some of the built up stress.

Dr. Natalie Waran, Expert for Equine Behaviour at the Royal School of Veterinary Sciences of the Scottish University of Edinburgh
In the UK we are rather getting tired of the join up method especially as this method is not new at all, but the Gyro (a round pen) was used for training horses in Roman times. If the horse is placed in isolation and in an unfamiliar environment and powerful psychological techniques such as those in the join up system are applied, you have to question the effect that has on the animal: The handler becomes an unpredictable dictator and the horse learns to become helpless, activity is reduced and the horse shows licking and chewing - all signs of stress.

RSS

The Rider Marketplace

International Horse News

Click Here for Barnmice Horse News

© 2024   Created by Barnmice Admin.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service