Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Deborah Hopkins on November 16, 2010 at 9:05am

I know this is the traditional method ... however it positions you as a predator.
Is this what we really want?
Seems to me "join up" can be achieved in a far less aggressive way ... just by
hanging out in the field with your horse and communicating through friendly
body language. Yield your hindquarters ...thank you... pat pat ... kindly back up
... very nice ... thank you .. pat pat.
I think our horses are drawn to us by their very nature ... we don't have to run
the bejeebers out of them !

Permalink Reply by Shirley on November 16, 2010 at 3:34pm

Deborah! I find I really agree with your thoughts posted here.
I have one question that is really no big deal at all, I'm just curious why you say that this is the traditional method?

Permalink Reply by Deborah Hopkins on November 17, 2010 at 1:02pm

Hi Shirley, I refer to this round pen "joining up" business as the "traditional" method because it seems to be what the big name "horse whisperer" trainers are advocating. It has never felt quite right to me. I have spent many enjoyable moments with a horse at liberty in a big arena, inviting him to follow me around which he/she does willingly. Can't get much more "joined up" than that! I also enjoy using my body language and nothing more than my own gestures to encourage my equine friend to trot and canter around me, changing directions when invited and stopping when asked. Pure magic and fun for both of us. I really like Ellen's approach. I am also following Carolyn Resnick and her "Waterhole Rituals" ... non traditional but it reasonates with me.

Permalink Reply by Shirley on November 17, 2010 at 1:43pm

Deborah: I see. Most my experience has been with Parelli and Clinton Anderson, then a little with Chris Cox, Reese, Monty Roberts, Chris Irwin and John Lyons. I didn't see that any of them do what Monty calls "join-up" so I don't know who else you are referring to as big name "horse whisperers". I assume Monty has many followers teaching his ways and the rest of them do.
But, I like your "join-up" experiences and feel I have this sort of magic with my horse too. He's my bud, not just my horse. He's now nine and we've been playing together for 6.5 years now. He comes to the barn as soon as he hears me & often w/ a whinny. He follows me around in the arena or pasture and the couple of times we've had accidents when I've ended up on the ground, he stays right with me rather then running off from a spook.
I'll have to look more into Carolyn Resnick and "Waterhole Rituals". I have heard many good things about her but have not yet had the opportunity to look at much of her techniques and ideas. There is soooo much information out there right now- some good ~ some bad. Lots interesting.
Have a great day and have fun "Horsen Around".

Permalink Reply by Ayesha on November 16, 2010 at 9:11am

Its good to have a post to clarify this. After Martin Clunes did his 'Horse power' 2 part series on the tv and met Monty roberts and tried it out on his own horse I knew of a few people who tried it. The Intro to monty roberts was very breif and did not give details on the signs of 'listening' how to acomplish it, when to stop, how long it should be done for and that it was not about making your horse charge hell for leather in a small space many people thought they could obtain harmony and get a horse to follow them by chasing them with a lunge line. I enjoyed the Tv program immensely but immediately thought 'I wonder how many naive people may go out and start chasing their horses around the field.

I del with vriety of rescue horses and my mother and me have used the method successfully to break down communication barriers with horses who are shut off nd do not want to listen, or horses with dominance issues, and have seen great results, however it can be mentally damaging if not done correctly and can be impossible to do on stallions if you are not giving off the correct signals etc.

I have in my years experienced two horses who would not join up. Teddy, an Anglo arab with dominance and aggression issues would not move or would run into your space and attack, no matter what you tried. And a mare who would literally try and climb out of the roundpen rather than run. With these horses other methods were used and were successful. Like humans horses are all different, and respond differently to different treatment. Some horses if hand reared may not understand the concept of being sent away and will become confused or angry at you attempting the join up.

Bottom line, be willing to accept your horse may not join up and to give up if he becomes stressed/aggressive/scared. And only attempt it if you know COMPLETELY what you are doing.

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on November 16, 2010 at 12:21pm

wow, Ayesha, that is so interesting..... I haven't ever read about Martin Clunes. I have chased one of my horses around..... for months when I first got him he turned his butt to me.... my new trainer taught me joining up. In fact he made me quit riding until my horse and I did it..... but, the running the horse around... that is not what I call joining up. It might get them to join up but it is a method not a result... do you agree? and he taught me that toby was such a bachelor horse that he needed it... and I learned driving and longing and roundpenning and liberty work with this horse and we are bonded.... ..... my horse Toby, when he is obstinte, in that he sort of starts it.... I run him around.... this is what gets his attention for some reason and he needs it.... he is a horse that seems to need pushing.... and when I run him around it's like 3 times around and then he turns and faces me and licks and chews and I quit... it seems stupid to me to act all dominant around horses..... however, he still, after 6 years, is not a joiner upper.. he just is so uninterested.... he will turn and face me from yards and yards away and as long as he listens when we are playing and does what I ask, without getting pissy then it is because we are joined up.... I go for the feeling of the bond and the physical connection..... every day I ask my horses to engage with me in liberty lunging exercises and for exercise mostly and to make sure we are connected and they know that I can move their feet, even in the name of fun and exercise and that they shall be rewarded for the slightest try.... and here is the reason why..... they relax and enjoy the day after they realize they do not have to worry, I've got it handled, I can reestablish myself as alpha caregiver.... Paying attention to the horses for me and rewarding their easiest gesture is what has gotten me the most bang for my buck... but what I learned from my trainer was how important it is to do the right thing when they do give you their attention.... that's all I am going to say for now.... because I want to see if you guys think I am on the right track...

I have run my horse around for the express desire of joining up..... and if they initiate any dominance, then and only then do I chase them away..... but I do make them have a safe distance and go out... and then I ask them to come in and we hang out close too... I think you have to know all of it.. I didn't even ride until I had that bond and connection with both my horses.... joining up is the single most important part of horsemanship but I just never learned it as chasing the horse around ONLY.... only if he's being a punk do I chase him around... when they are joined up and listening, I teach them something new.... then if they get pissy, I ask them to join up again and then start over, the softest gesture that I can do with the most effectiveness is to point at the hip and turn it around once in a circle with their eyes on me like a wake up and come back here, LOL and it works.... ...... Toby didn't follow me for YEARS girl.... and every day he wants to blow me off and I ask him to come back Toby come back, LOL some days he will not come with me if I don't chase him. .... Ponyboy teaches following in Horse Follow Closely, Carolyn Resnick teaches the water hole ritual, my trainer specializes in joining up.... one time we spent a whole year together hanging out with the horses. And getting them to follow..... I have a video up on my page of Oliver and I... I want my horses to be happily connected and following me because I'm a fun, engaging, interesting and knowledgeable leader.... Oliver gets defensive and angry if you push him a way.... he is the exact opposite. In your face... I went to clicker training to ask him to back up and think about staying away for a few seconds.... he can barely do it.... yesterday if he didn't back up I did smack his shoulder and he started staying away..... somedays he does not relax and yawn and chew until he gets bonked on a few times.... he actually gets softer with one good smack at the right time.. sad... I actually have to experiment on the most effective way of asking him to back up and he's bipolar it seems so you got to try every day.... but he is so connected it just seems mean to push him around so I reward him for the right distance by releasing the pressure... one to stay out... and the other one to come in... LOL... love it!! the law of attraction with horses is my favorite topic and I've practiced joining up for 6 years.... some days my horses and I just turn on music and walk around the arena together, then jog. and dance around... :) the art of joining up, to me is the meticulous practice of relationship training so that in any situation you can get their attention and calm them and get them to focus.... do you think that is right?

have a good day!!

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on November 16, 2010 at 10:39am

:) That is interesting..... I think joining up is a very important facet of learning how to deal with your horse..... but the way that it is desribed here is not how I learned it....

Permalink Reply by Ellen Ofstad on November 16, 2010 at 2:31pm

Just to make it easier to talk about the method, I wanted to post a video clip. This is a clip with Monty Roberts (that has named the phrase "join-up". I understand that you do different variations on this, but that makes it a bit unrelated to the question. The way it is described, and the way it is shown in this clip, is this a good thing, or bad thing, and why?

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on November 16, 2010 at 6:39pm

I watched the video and then I read the comments.

Firstly, to Ayesha. I guess I do join up with my horses because I don't really know what else to do.... since that is where I started, I have made a game of catching my horses and just practice and practice till 6 years later we are doing many of the things you said, word for word, like clicker training, etc..... as I grow in my horsemanship skills we can move on, I only say that because your comment is so pertinent that you don't keep joining up.... oh well, I still have a lot to learn? like now I got him what do I do NOW??? LOL....

and to Ellen: Well, like Shirley, after watching Monty I do have a few comments.... it actually sort of cracks me up that he started where he wanted to end.... the horse is staring at him to which he pushes her away and begins his roundpenning. What if he asked her to follow right then? ..... Then, even when she bows down... at that point in time I would step back, make an outside turn, give her my shoulder and ask her to follow.... if she did not, I'd ask her to go around again, but not until I first tried to catch her hip and her eye..... if she looked at me I would back off and see if she were ready to follow .... this is at point 3;21..... at 3:33 he says he is "passive? he goes at her and at her and at her, always walking towards her... at 3:44 he invites her in..... if I want my horse to follow I give him my shoulder, if I invite him in, I literally bend in the middle and gesture for him to come here..... that is how I ask him to come in...... then, at 6:00 her tail is pretty swishy.... he does not comment, Oh I am pissing her off, he keeps pushing through.... if my horse were pissy and swishing his tail I would keep asking for what I want and not quit until he did it more willingly, and that might take slowing way down but the second he looked like I wanted him to with his head down, licking chewing, ears forward, soft eye, STOP!! he does not acknowledge her good behavior to her... he does to us, but not to her. ...... Then, when she started bucking, I think he handled it pretty well, not overly reacting..... and he stayed very calm... kind of answered my own question about what to do when the horse is freaking out.. I enjoyed that part....

When I watched the video, I liked some parts, learned some things, thought I did some things better....

Overall, why I have forever had problems with this method is because my horse is joined UP!! Oliver comes to me and sniffs my clothes like it is nothing to be around me...... he does not run around in circles and he does not seem to be a flight animal.. so to this I say, OH, Join up to Follow UP..... I got that..... he follows me like that no matter what I do with his head down like a puppy..... my other horse Toby, you could run him around like this till he sweat and sweat... he would not willingly go to this man. He would submit but you would still see fear.... ..... for maybe 6 years... that's how long I've asked him to come over...... :) and I think I know what I am doing and I know the horse.... .. he just does not have the desire until you schmooze him a little .... with my other horse, it is his desire to be in a duo....

do I think it is good or bad? I think it is awesome...... but, I think it is important to fine tune the release the release the release... when she licked and chewed, if he stopped and took a step back I think her hip would have swung around and she would have turned and faced him much faster.. I think he over did the asking and pushing to the point of being annoying.... my trainer would have hung on her side for much much longer before throwing a leg over because she was swishing..... that is not truly comfortable.... Monty is pushier than my trainer is..... we only roundpen if the horse is being naughty..... and just to remind him that it's okay to listen, we are there to take charge and take care so he doesn't have to feel stressed at all....

Permalink Reply by Ayesha on November 17, 2010 at 5:25am

Everyone trains differently, we all progress and learn new things about our horses every day, we have to do what works for us. I personally wouldn't use join up as a regular thing for the reasons stated earlier. Using it in the manner that you described when a horse becomes naughty is fine, it reinforces the 'herd order' as it were, however if it is used regularly I have known horses to 'play out' the scenario they learn what signals to give to make sure the 'joiner upper' lets them stop. Like anything a horse can become desensetized to a training method, and simply switch to auto pilot. . But there are trust building games etc that can be played that have the same effect and can break down communication barriers in similar ways.

I am part of a website called 'The Art Of Natural Dressage' they have a huge forum with similar topics and I believe they discuss different games, join up etc. It has helped me so much to think clearer about what I want and how to acheieve things with my horses. Each member has their own diary, you can read their experiences, and techniques, everyone is very varied but all have one thing in common, the desire to train a horse to a high standard without restraints and without force. They have shetlands that can perform the most advanced moves, that would put some spanish trained horses to shame :)

Sometimes with horses we do get days where we are stuck and do ask ourselves 'So what now?' I like to make every day a bit of a game, we have scratchy sessions, games are done at liberty so Navara can dictate when she has had enough and I will repect that, we do desensitization game, introducing her to new objects and allowing her to explore but we also train in the more conventional way, and do fully tacked schooling long lining and free schooling too. I wish you lots of luck with your horse, and would love to hear more in the future!

Sorry also for my rambling, im aware I ramble and go on about things until im blue in the face, so once again many apologies :D

Permalink Reply by Megan Hammock on November 17, 2010 at 9:59am

Hmm, I really have varying thoughts about this in my head.. My gut says "why scare the crap out of the poor thing?" I can see what it'd accomplish, and maybe it gets you to the same point you'd get otherwise in the end, faster.. But it doesn't really seem "fair"..

Then I wonder what "fair" really is with a being that is about 900 pounds heavier than I am?

I guess my answer is really a question.. What would a way that is fair to the horse AND the human be to accomplish what "join-up" sets out to do?

I know things like this work these ways with my girls:

Kai ("dominant" mare) is a spoiled darling who would run if I do things she doesn't like, but darnit if she'll do something SHE doesn't want to do! (Oh, the things I"ve been learning about that girl..haha)

Donoma (people-scared girl) will run like hell if she even THINKS you might try to do something to her.. She's braver about investigating everything.. Except for people.

Point is, even if it were the right thing to do (I have my questions with that), I don't think it'd work for my ladies! But.. What would??

Can't wait to hear back and read more..

I've missed ya'll!

Permalink Reply by Ayesha on November 16, 2010 at 3:12pm

As we all know most of my work with horses is done at liberty and is always a positive thing for me and my horses to enjoy. I like to make my horses 'work' fun and enjoyable.

And I do agree with your average friendly broken and well handled horse it is unlikely you will need to use it. However I use join-up on horses who have come from 'troubled' backgrounds or may be wild and off the newforest, many of these horses do not benefit from my positive reinforcement methods or verbal or physical praise as many do not like being touched, and do not enjoy human contact or even the presence of a human. The join up can help break down a barrier and see you as someone who is offering them safety and peace of mind if they want it.
Many mares will 'punish' a youngster by chasing it from the herd for a certain amount of distance before then allowing it back into the herd and rewarding it with safety. Once the horse comes into the center and follows you, you have broken down the barrier and can start rewarding the horse in a positive fashion, he may let you stroke him or offer him a peice of carrot too. Join-up is supposed to be a non aggressive and more peaceful approach than some other methods people have used, such as roping a horse to the floor and accepting its body being stroked because it cannot move, however a trainer who is always round penning a horse 'because it deserves or needs it' should not be using such a method as it turns into a punishment. I don't believe in using join up often as usually once the first barriers are broken there is no need to continue doing it. You earn some respect, and some trust and then you can start sitting, being with, offering treats, and further 'gentling' your horse.

I used join up once on Navara when she first arrived and have never had to do it since. She would not be caught and would allow no human contact no matter how much time was spent with her it was clear she had no intention of comming to investigate me and I decided join up could help her think about me as being a new offerer of protection so we could start a more harmonious relationship. After about 5-10 minutes of join up, throwing some tantrums and then finally accepting what I was offering she finally came over to me head lowered and allowed me to stroke her. She had plenty of trust issues, fears and quirks, and where these came from I am unsure. She still can be quite nervous in new situations and can be 'irrational' at times, where one horse may simply spook and stand still, she will charge and work herself up into a sweat.

We now practice liberty work, using clicker training and other positive methods and we can successfully free lunge, perform a variety of tricks, gradually learning tackless and she has responded to all sorts of objects for desensitization in a positive and calm way she even has around 300 fans on youtube. I have even taught her to jump using nothing but body language and praise whn she follows me and copies my speed and guidance. The Join up helped break the ice and make her think about me differently. It has taken us a year to form a proper bond, and it has been up and down, she has proved to be quite a challenge but a horse I truly enjoy and admire, the join up just helped us speed up the 'trust' a little more.

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