I don't believe that the horse being in "our space" has to be a sign of disrespect. First of all, it depends on what the horse has been taught; if we haven't told it that this is something we don't want, then how is it a sign of disrespect? Second off all; if we HAVE told it that we don't want it close, why do we have to look at it as disrespect? Why not use the word disobedient? And, why not take a closer look at WHY before we start making assumptions. I think the word respect and disrespect are overused and kind of hard to understand.

When I handle young horses as well as older, but insecure animals, they often try to get very close. They seem to want my support and help, and in my view that is far from disrespectful. Sometimes, if it's a big horse that is showing stress in a way that makes me think it is likely to jump in the air at any moment, I will get it to move away from me.

I don't do that with a light heart; I can see that I am pushing it away when it needs my support, but I do it to make sure I don't get hurt. Not that I think it would want to hurt me, but in that state of mind, when it is stressed by it's surroundings, it can easily happen that it gets spooked and can run me down unintentionally. If I am knocked down I won't be much good to the horse, so I get it to move away from me so I can try to help it with a distance between us until it has calmed down a little.

By doing that I make it even harder for the horse and it takes a bit longer for me to help it, but I also need to feel safe in order to be able to give the horse the reassurance that it needs.
As soon as I feel that the horse isn't explosive I will let it be very close to me, and from that position I can help it feel like it's OK.

I can see NO disrespect in a horse acting this way; the horse is doing the same thing a youngster does with it's mother. Notice how a horse often will get very close to the other horses when feeling upset! If a horse does that with me, I think of it as a good thing rather than a bad thing; the horse is showing me that it want's my support.

There is a lot of talk about us being the leader. What is the role of the leader if not this: someone they can turn to for support when they are feeling upset and insecure?

O'boy, I think I just entered another aspect of these body language signals, and this is a bit of a can of worms I'm afraid; the issue of leadership! :) I will get into that soon, it really is related to the calming signals in a way, but that will be in a separate posting :)

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After many years of riding and owning a horse I finally came to the conclusion that I had to EARN the horse's respect, and that the way I earned the respect was through calm, gentle, consistent and non-abusive handling.

Once I convince the horse that I am WORTHY of respect through my actions I get cooperation.

DEMANDING respect from the get-go never worked for me, what I got was either fear or an ever deepening reluctance to be around me.
I can relate to what Jackie has said, and what Ellen has said really make sense. When I first started working with Rip in March, I was told I had to demand respect from him because he was so independent and hard headed. I completely spaced out the lessons my mare had taught me years ago about earning the respect from her. Thankfully, thru Ellen and others, like Jackie and an Aussie friend of mine, I righted my way of thinking and now Rip and I are really starting to come together. He also likes to come close to me, I've found he really is a security seeker and now that I've calmed down about him being close to me, he's less tense...we're both enjoying our close time together.
You know, this group of people is very wise... more wise than many people I've met over the years on line... thank you so much for your continued devotion to your horses and figuring them out... my horse, Oliver..... he's an orphan.... from the time I met him he has been one inch from me nose to nose, curious and looking for a friend..... but this whole disrespect thing..... made me uneasy about my horse and everyone that saw pictures or photos of us standing real close would say, you know Jennifer he is invading your space..... I started watching videos of trainers...... and I'd see roundpenning sessions where the horses would be let into the roundpen and right away they would start running around the outside rail and the trainer would be trying to catch the horse..... my baby (I've been lucky enough to have my horse since he was adopted by me at 8 weeks old) was never like that.... he just wanted to be with me from the get go... I was always talking to people about, but how do you get them to go away, everyone says he is being disrespectful.... I cried about it... why is my horse so retarded, what is wrong with him why isn't he normal... My precious daughter came to me one day when I was crying, and I must say, I obsessed over him for years... what am I doing wrong, boohoo.... she said mom, sit down..... look at me... I've hung around a few horses and I want to tell you something... he loves you..... horses don't do that with people..... they are not naturally so ready to be friends with humans... why don't you just go with it????? I had sort of decided this on my own already..... but her words of wisdom changed my life...... why fight it? this is him..... one day you guys when I first started doing my ponyboy stuff and spending time with my horse.... oliver was 3 by then..... and I had pushed him away for three years trying to get my space and getting him to be respectful I changed my whole training.... (tired of pushing my horse away... seriously, that feels awful if you've ever had to do it to a sweet doe eyed curious youngster that just is confused about is he a horse or a person... (orphanism)... I decided to just morph into him.... and be with him close..... anyway, one weekend during spendtime with my horsey time he stood by me for over 3 hours and he would not leave.... like guarding me..... as if we were nose to tail friends in the pasture.... he didn't eat, he didn't drink he didn't pee he just gave me a look like he would never leave me and he didn't want me to leave him..... that day, and from this day forward I realized that there are not even that many people in my human life that want to be that protective and devoted to me..... he is my war pony..... he is my friend..... he is not disrespecting me.. a huge egomanical word that pisses me off.... he is showing me over and over that he can be close and not hurt me... do you know that eventhough I have posted stories about him running me down... I hope you understand that that was only if my energy was asking him to do something in an aggressive way, like if Julie Goodnight tried that aggressive backing up energy with oliver or bonked him with a clip he might actually run into her..... but if I just stay calm and cool with him that sweet huge hunky horse has not even ever stepped on me or nipped me or kicked or anything.... he just wanted to be close... and like my sweetie pie Alicia said, "they aren't all like that so just go with it".... our horses are so generalized when they are so special, each one of them... not very many times online have I met an entire group of people dedicated to learning about how to have a relationship, a communication with their beloved horses... I've worked on this for 6 years..... my trainer took me off my horse Toby that I rode around scared to death in traffic and stuff for 2 years before I met him and said please get down, I'd like to show you something... and we started joining up exercises and communication..... if I can help any of you at all with anything, as I learn from all of you as well, please, that is why I go on line to help others... Oliver is an inspirational horse... an Indian Shoshone Pony that I rescued from the wild after he was orphaned and what I've learned about going with my own instincts to have a relationship with my horse has made him a better friend to me than many of the folks I know around here that think they know about horses.. I am very happy to have made the acquaintance of all of you... I've been long time friends with Jackie C and Shirley but the rest of you are inspiring me and I can't wait to share our experiences and videos and photos of our special horses... your friends, Jen, Toby and Oliver
my trainer just came to see us and we haven't all been together for the whole summer.....shot my theory all to hell..... anyway, I'll be gone for a week on holiday.... check in with you guys when I get back... but here is what he said and then left again like he does....

He's being aggressive.... (now I havent seen him be aggressive for WEEKS but Steve was sort of pushing him around and Oliver was NOT liking it... ) and this is what he said.... "we can't pussy foot around him with low energy all the time... if he sees high energy he can't get all wild and aggressive"..... so there ya go.... there is a theory maybe you guys can figure out while I'm gone.... in the meantime I'm having a bummer day now.. possibly need to get back to believing that I am right about my horse without fighting with my best friend and trainer.... :( oh and the clincher... "you let him close to you for his whole life so now he has no concept of respect and that is the reason why he is the way he is..."

to me it seemed like he just came over and after not seeing Oliver for almost 3 months just sort of pissed him off.... :(
Something just happened that is really thrilling to me. I got Rip's halter and went to get him for his daily turnout, he yawned really big twice as I approached. Then, while leading Rip to the turn out, something happened behind us, not sure what it was because I did not hear or see anything...thing is he heard it, or sensed it and it spooked him. He sort of skittered ahead of me a bit, I stopped rather surprised because he's not a spooky horse, and he turned and came up very close to me; like Ellen described a foal seeking security. Instead of reacting like he was disrespecting 'my space', I stroked his neck and spoke in a calm voice. He stood so close and I could feel he was just soaking up my 'safety zone'. Once he relaxed we continued to the turn out, where I'd put out a nice pile of hay for the day. Once I walked away, he nibbled a bit, then did a small circle at an easy lope with his head up and looking around. Sort of looked like he was looking for what ever scared him so he could kick it's butt, saying, "That's right, I'm a big boy and I'm not afraid anymore!", LOL! What a character. The whole incident left me feeling really good inside. Thanks again Ellen, for all your insight.
Hey Sarah... is that not awesome.... you gave him confidence... :)
The whole "soft" versus "hard" approach (gentle vs assertive?) really confuses me. Fanny is very sensitive and gentle. If I take her into an arena or round pen, chances are she will come over and stick to me like glue. Having taken "natural horsemanship" lessons, I was believing that she stuck to me like that because she was lazy and didn't want to be lunged. Sometimes I have a real time of getting her to move away from me to lunge - she just keeps coming close if I step away to create space between us. That's what has me thinking that she's the kind of horse that responds better to gentle training than "bossy" training.

I also noticed in the past that when I'd play NH games with her a couple of days in a row, the next time I'd go to see her she wanted nothing to do with me and would walk away. She will sometimes do that if I ride her, too. The next day she won't come to me as willingly. She really doesn't seem to want to be ridden. Been wanting to replace her saddle, but can't afford a new one, so I get on her bareback occasionally. She's not too bad the day after that. Hmmmm...lots to think about.
maybe with Ellen here and some of us we can help you make her more willing..... that must be tough for you to see that your horse doesn't want to hang out with you.... I have a horse like that... I did stop riding him.... but we play every day and more and more he is willing to approach me.... my trainer and i got together yesterday after not seeing each other for awhile.... and I tried some of my soft approach and he tried some of his harder approach and Oliver wanted to be with me.... we almost had an argument about it.... when Oliver got kind of jacked up he said well we can't all have low energy around him, what if we use higher energy and he gets aggressive... it is confusing, now I'm puzzled and worried about that comment... what do you guys think about what Cyndi said.... I mean, I'm riding my horse lets say down the road in the future.... I'm doing my best to be my calm self, someone comes up to him and me and starts being rude or busy or full of energy and he has a fit..... I guess, just calm him back down is what i'll have to do that might be the answer... this is why I practice ENERGY because my pony feeds off of it....
What did Oliver do with yoiur trainer that you call 'jacked up'?
As far as Cyndi goes, I wouldn't want to comment why her horse avoids her after she does things with him on prior days without seeing a video. I always try to do something with Cash that he enjoys so he feels a good energy when he sees me. I hand graze him often either before or after we work/play. But even before I did that a lot, he usually came when he saw me at the gate. I think I'm gentle with Cash but I do make him mind. As gentle as possible but as firm as necessary. Like the other day he got pushy and rushed into his stall at supper time. I could have yelled and smacked him but I went in got his halter, heads up, took him out of his stall and made him stand at the door a couple of minutes before he was allowed to go in to eat. If that gentle action had not worked I'd have had to be more forceful. Someone could easily get hurt if I allowed him to continue that action.
Even to a horse, SAFTY comes first. Seems to be the most important thing to them. It needs to be on the top of our list too.
Hey Shirley..... I like your correction of Cash... :) I haven't even left my back yard yet but I do like to practice with my horses going in and out of small areas... and not rushing so that I get more confidence.... um, he got very defensive and raising his head and by the end of the day Steve said he was aggressive... do you know that in the entire summer that I've been with Oliver he had not done that at all? he is sort of a charger I guess you could say.... he also was starting to get a real high head which if you watch my videos I avoid at all costs..... jacked up to me, is when we push the horse into a state that is not his usual by using our force or energy... then, when the horse is all jacked up he usually gets in trouble for it but that doesn't seem fair... I really felt that Oliver was being responsive to an energy he hadn't been used to in a while.... Steve and Oliver, they gotta work on their relationship again.... I think Steve lost him to me... :) he was even pushing him away from me and stuff yesterday.... and trying to maybe protect or guard me... orphanism is a wierd wierd thing to deal with.... I think I keep trying to show Steve that lower energy works but he's not convinced yet... thankfully he is open minded.
Sounds like Oliver has gotten used to being treated a certain way and wants to keep it that way...you are maybe very comfortable for him. As long as u keep his comfort zone growing things should work out. Right? That is if you want him to be able to be social with others.
There might be some disagreement from others but it does sound like Oliver might b jealous and protective where you are concerned. Cute and kinda wonderful as long as he doesn't go overboard. Cash will sometimes put his ears back at certain people that he knows makes me uncomfortable (Not the case with you and Steve or do u get uncomfortable if he seems to be more agressive with Oliver then you like) . Some say horses don't have the feeling of jealousy. When I was spending time with Fred, my abused horse friend, Cash seemed to get a bit jealous and stand-off-ish with me. We weren't all together at the same time but I'm sure he could hear me with Fred and smell him on me. Keep having fun!
I will agree with Shirley, Oliver has gotten used to being treated a certain way, I also agree that his comfort zone should grow, I hope that is what I got across with the desensitizing suggestion as far as energy goes...because that is what I meant. I also agree that horses feel a sort of jealousy, although I don't like to attribute a 'human emotion' to a horse I really don't know what else to call it. Star seemed 'put out' with me when we brought Rip home and the 'new' of having a 'boy friend' wore off, lol. When I talk with one of my neighbors over the fence, Rip will always come over and put himself between us, I like her, I think she likes me, Rip might intimidate her a little, so maybe he was interrupting that as a sort of threat to me...who knows. Recently I took the time while conversing with her to let him know it was alright, that he didn't need to be between us. Now when we talk over the fence, he comes and stands beside me like he's joining the conversation. Yesterday he even grabbed a stick and ran it up and down the fence, making the same sort of noise a card in the spokes of a bike makes, it was sort of like a song he was playing for us, LOL.

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