Personal space and respect

I don't believe that the horse being in "our space" has to be a sign of disrespect. First of all, it depends on what the horse has been taught; if we haven't told it that this is something we don't want, then how is it a sign of disrespect? Second off all; if we HAVE told it that we don't want it close, why do we have to look at it as disrespect? Why not use the word disobedient? And, why not take a closer look at WHY before we start making assumptions. I think the word respect and disrespect are overused and kind of hard to understand.

When I handle young horses as well as older, but insecure animals, they often try to get very close. They seem to want my support and help, and in my view that is far from disrespectful. Sometimes, if it's a big horse that is showing stress in a way that makes me think it is likely to jump in the air at any moment, I will get it to move away from me.

I don't do that with a light heart; I can see that I am pushing it away when it needs my support, but I do it to make sure I don't get hurt. Not that I think it would want to hurt me, but in that state of mind, when it is stressed by it's surroundings, it can easily happen that it gets spooked and can run me down unintentionally. If I am knocked down I won't be much good to the horse, so I get it to move away from me so I can try to help it with a distance between us until it has calmed down a little.

By doing that I make it even harder for the horse and it takes a bit longer for me to help it, but I also need to feel safe in order to be able to give the horse the reassurance that it needs.
As soon as I feel that the horse isn't explosive I will let it be very close to me, and from that position I can help it feel like it's OK.

I can see NO disrespect in a horse acting this way; the horse is doing the same thing a youngster does with it's mother. Notice how a horse often will get very close to the other horses when feeling upset! If a horse does that with me, I think of it as a good thing rather than a bad thing; the horse is showing me that it want's my support.

There is a lot of talk about us being the leader. What is the role of the leader if not this: someone they can turn to for support when they are feeling upset and insecure?

O'boy, I think I just entered another aspect of these body language signals, and this is a bit of a can of worms I'm afraid; the issue of leadership! :) I will get into that soon, it really is related to the calming signals in a way, but that will be in a separate posting :)

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on September 25, 2010 at 5:40pm

you guys have cute stories!! Oliver is a work in progress that is for sure.... yes he's used to a certain pressure from me and he probably is very comfortable with it... but can I tell you? he was "stiff" like someone explained about one of their horses and defensive in posture.... so this is a new behavior for him..... and I notice physically that he lets his hair down more now... he drops his winkie which he has never done the minute we start working on stuff and he yawns and rolls with me and lays down... so yes, this is project loosen up Oliver, he literally had a chip on his shoulder.... and maybe now it's time to constructively get him used to more energy.. Steve worked with him for 3 years and now I've worked with him for 2..... and it's interesting to say the least..... oh analyzing him makes me tired, LOL... the only thing I ask is that when we talk about him we just remember for purposes of learning that he is an orphan.... their tendencies are sometimes different than other horses though I do like hearing that your horses do the same thing and I love learning about Cash, and Rip.... I wish I knew more horses so their stories make me endeared to them.... ... his protectiveness of me is maybe something that you might not have seen before... the only time I ever saw it before was when a gelding was boarded here and he would push everyone off from his mare... this is what it's like.... I think his comfort level will grow as his confidence grows and he becomes less stressed within himself.... I am taking him from super wound up tight physically to relaxing.. not like he's jittery because he's not... but like his teeth are clenced and his muscles are tight.... which Steve thinks he does, (as in relaxing hime) and he's good at it, but I've taken it down a notch because I thought my horse had a defensive posture..... this defensive posture probably came because I didn't trust him..... as I trust him and he trusts me his defenses come down.. and now when I push him into higher levels of energy I don't want it due to adrenaline or aggression, I want it due to a cue I give him that we are going walk, trot canter, etc... does that make sense at all???? :) you guys are such good friends to Oliver..... he appreciates the help. But he feeds off energy.... and for this reason until he is exposed to more it's kinda wierd... now, for years, before I tried these exercises, I wasn't all that lovey dovey with him.... I bossed him around pretty sternly, never petted him, never loved on him or gave him a break.. I chased him and pushed him and tried to be a mare mom to him..... so now this new energy is actually what he is getting used to.. but the old energy he ain't going for anymore.. it's almost like he says, it's okay to ask me nice I get it.. and I agree with him.. why do people get all ballistic when the horse is being so nice with gentle energy.. again, an experiment.... as he always is....

so enough about me, what are all ya alls doing this weekend with your horses.... let's get the attention off of my messed up horse,,,, I can't go any further till I try these exercises so I have nothing else to discuss till I try Sarah's homework and Shirley's homework... I learned one thing about him.. he's easier to lead than push... jmho.

Permalink Reply by Shirley on September 26, 2010 at 2:04am

I was planning on going on a week-end trip to upper Michigan to do a little color tour and go to a Buck Brannaman clinic for a couple days.With a little research I found that the morning sessions were Horse 1/useing a snaffle bit and then the afternoons were Cow-work and roping. That just didn't sound like what I was expecting so I decided to put the expenses saved toward some other horsie wants. I also watched a few videos on YOuTube of a couple clinics of his & knew for sure it wasn't going to be what I'd expected and hoped it would be. Don't get me wrong, he seems like a great guy, it's just that what they were working on just isn't my thing.
Buck Brannaman is the fella that "The Horse Whisperer" was based on and he helped with the horses when they were making the film. He also has a book called, "Believe" and I've read and enjoyed it.

Tonight my boarding barn had a party, (well the barn didn't have the party-lol) dishes to pass and a bomb-fire and hay ride. It was a real nice evening. One of the ladies brought pumpkins for all the kids & helped them cut and decorate them while the parents chilled by the fire and with the horses. It was a bit cool outside but everyone stayed and seemed to have fun.
I always enjoy parties better with Cash nearby. When I get peopled out, I can go visit with him a while. I like people but find groups of them a bit draining.
I've felt like I've been taking progress with Cash a little too serious lately, especially with wanting to do trail riding. It was making me feel bad about myself as a horse-mom cause I know Cash would be far ahead with a more confident & experienced rider. Something a couple people said on here made me think that I'm taking things too seriously and it was taking the fun out of it. That's ridiculous cause we do have a great relationship and I'm so thankful for that. If we could never do anything more then we can do now, I'd still be thrilled to have Cash & our experience in my life. He's been a dream come true. Actually I never ever expected such a nice relationship~~dreamed it but never really expected it. My I am getting sappy here. Yesterday when I realized all this I just played with Cash with the things we've learned to do and gave him lots of treats so we both were happy when we were done. I've got to get some current pics and videos on here. Our newest things learned are Cash kicking his front legs up high and forward one leg at a time & when he puts his front legs on his little log platform we're adding him trying to move his back legs around as he keeps the fronts still on the log. I think he feels my enthusiasm but mainly all he wants is the treat...maybe the praise a little.
I've gone on too long here. Never tire of talking horses.

Permalink Reply by Sarah Siler on September 26, 2010 at 10:22am

Go ahead and get sappy, I'm pretty sure we all have done that at one time or another, ;-). I think having fun is the biggest reason we have horses in our lives, otherwise why would we do all those 'chores' that keeping horses requires, lol. I'd have loved to go to the Brannaman clinic, I've worked cattle before and it's a blast! Star and I did some team sorting back in Az, we weren't the fastest or the best, but NO ONE had more fun than we did! I think you'll be surprised at how much progress you and Cash make if you just incorporate more of those fun days back in your 'routine'; you are building a stronger bond while you play. JMO of course. So far my weekend hasn't had much 'horsie and me' time. I have gone in the turn out, where they are, several times just to 'touch base' with them.

Permalink Reply by Ellen Ofstad on September 26, 2010 at 5:46pm

Sorry about not keeping up... What excercises are you talking about that you are doing with him now?
Also, you mentioned that he yawns; have you noticed when he does this, and have you thout about what it means?

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on October 30, 2010 at 2:12pm

I've been doing more work with Oliver and a higher energy... and riding him too... I can't figure out where this thread is going, but I wanted to come in and say Hi you guys...... when the weather is fall like this..... omgosh my allegies are so much better and I can go and play..... I hope you are enjoying the weather and that all is well with you guys too!!

Permalink Reply by Marlene Thoms on October 30, 2010 at 11:30pm

Good to hear you are getting more "fresh air" Jennifer.And that you are riding more now. I really enjoyed your pictures. We had rain lately, so my Guy had a little R&R but I did get out with him today. He was good for most of the ride, then got fresh on the home stretch. Obviously still had some beans left in him. That's what you get for letting an Arabian recharge his batteries for a few days! The maple leaves were so gorgeous today, whole trees in bright yellow full glory. I wish the fall would last forever.

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on March 7, 2011 at 12:18pm

Oliver gives me a headache thinking about him so much.... I tend to agree with Ellen.... with most everything, can't think of what I don't agree with her about...... and I want to be her, and train like her.... but I think it is very conflicting because my horse is getting in trouble with my trainer the more I do it.... I think I just can't let him get familiar with me so much because of his temperment and personality, not because Ellen isn't a fabulous trainer...... I am really sad, I cried for about a week about it..... that I wanted to be able to have a horse that I just didn't need alot of energy for..... I think I am right, and I think Ellen is right, how did he know to get out of my space if he didn't know I didn't want that..... but my trainer came and we talked and talked and talked and he tells me why he thinks my horse will have a tendency to be dangerous.... and that depresses me too, because I have to have an energy that is not me.... :( but boo hoo Jennifer get over it and cowboy up....... have you ever seen a horse nip at the horses butt? and push the horse from behind? That is what he wants to see... Oliver not following me because he tends to push me from behind instead of the other way around..... and I do have him trotting from place to place now, but that is because steve came over and perked Oliver up and it was not a pretty site...... now, I haven't gone near him much, just pushing him back and away from me..... Olivers issues are not trust.... they are respect....

Permalink Reply by Cyndi on March 8, 2011 at 3:37pm

Wow, Jennifer, I agree with your post so much!! I, too, want to do things Ellen's way, but I just don't know what I'm doing, and there is no support out here, for someone to help me. Being torn in two (or more!) directions lately has really stressed me out.

My horse appears to trust me to a certain point, but that trust doesn't go all the way, and I'm pretty sure that some people would say that she doesn't respect me.

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on March 17, 2011 at 11:22am

Well I will support you if I can, though I think my ideas are maybe disputed here..... Oliver actually called me to come out and play yesterday so I think that is a sign.... I left him out in the arena alone and came inside for a bit and he kept whinnying and whinnying.... then we played a game that was very effective and he really loosened up and got into it..... it's called don't cross the line..... I divided my arena into two halves.... I requested that he walk back and forth and then trot back and forth against the rail and then turn.... and go the other way..... the reason why he loved the game was because I couldn't cross the line either...... he got comfortable in the fact that I had a boundary too.... my teacher says we take the horses space for granted when they deserve a safe spot too a place where they can go and get a release... the more I made sure that I was not invading his space the more freer and looser he got in his movements...... I am using my new handy stick and pushing him from behind instead of having him follow me and he is understanding my boundaries more... :) I've also been playing the eye game which I am not very good at... to keep his eyes on me at all times if I can keep him so engaged and when he looks away, to just push with my energy or my stick on the body part that he is pushing me with.... look how subtly your horse actually pushes on you and ask them nicely not to and you will se how easy it is to ask them to not crouch you..... :) this is what I am doing, like I said, I get blasted here alot, but my horse is shaking his head, lowering his head, breathing out more, dropping, rolling his eyes and yawning, now whinninying and calling to me and all since I started really asking him to watch his crowding.... ")

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on March 17, 2011 at 12:47pm

I wanted to comment that the video that Ellen put up on problem horses is so great how she explains release....

my success in the boundary game is that he doesn't have to deal with my energy close either.... we can have confidence in not being right on top of one another... so when he pushes on me say with his shoulder and I ask him right away not to and get him to bend inward insteadof outward then he softens... and I must release..... right then and walk away so he doesn't go back to guarding himself..... maybe even wait for the lick and chew. I was screwing that part up totally.....

I get blasted because I open myself up and because I make mistakes.... Ellen has criticized and Steve has criticized..... but if my mistakes help someone else then that is why I put them up here so we can all learn..... the end result is what I am looking for at the moment.. I want him to lower and drop the chip on his shoulder and be more adjusted and happy. I had to stop caressing him and rubbing him and getting so close..... he wasn't able to handle it so much maybe with his wild side...... so both of us are away more from each other, moving around but not so near and giving him lots of release and he is freer and looser... it's pretty cool... watch Ellens video though it is so so great.... what a great explanation of release. she caught the horse by not trying to catch him at all.... I can't wait till I see her someday work with a problem horse like mine...

Permalink Reply by Cyndi on March 17, 2011 at 1:45pm

Thanks, Jennifer :o)

Some of the best times at the barn are when Fanny and I are just relaxed and playing in the field. She will trot after me and will toss her head, but she is always mindful of my space and I never feel that she is going to hurt me. Playing with her in this way is the only way I see her moving in this manner. Usually she is pretty docile and not one who likes to move at all. I'm hoping that the play we do is helping her feel more confident and proud.

I, too, would like to see Ellen in person, to see what she does with a horse "from start to finish" in a clinic.

Permalink Reply by Sarah Siler on September 25, 2010 at 1:10pm

I agree with Shirley, you can discipline a horse without whacking him. Rip is now learning that very thing. I think even Ellen has said something along those same lines, about rather than punish, show the horse what you want him to do instead. I am assuming here, that 'jacked up' means moving about quickly in an uncontrollable, perhaps threatening, manner (her trainer said aggressive) that would put humans in a dangerous position?