Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on November 18, 2010 at 3:57pm

I think your theory is right on Jackie. Thank you for comments and interactions on this thread.....

very good point.... I wish the replys would stay under the comments because this thread is getting confusing again...

Permalink Reply by Pamela N on February 3, 2011 at 11:09pm

I don't think round penning is all that common in the wild.  I found an interesting study from Australia. I swear these scientists have a
sense of humor. They put mare-colt, mare-filly dyads in a round pen and
observed them to see how much time the mare stands in the center of the pen and
chases the colt or filly around. Answer: about .27% of the time; the mare
spends more time chasing the colt rather than the filly but still the behavior
is virtually non-existent. I have to admit that you could argue that the
experiment was not based on horse behavior in the wild nor on observation of
natural horse behavior in domesticated situations but the results are
interesting.

"Implications for the welfare of the ridden horse: The aim of training methods
is to have at least some influence over the horses to which they are applied;
clearly a thorough understanding of such methods is required. The results of
this and other studies have shown that the responses elicited from human-horse
interactions in round-yards are not reflected in horse-horse interactions. The
welfare of horses being subjected to round-yard training methods may often be
jeopardised by trainers having unrealistic expectations based on incorrect
assumptions that the behaviour exhibited mimics that of the horse-horse
interactions in more natural environments."

http://merc.net.au/training-horses-in-round-yards-2/

 

Regards, Pamela N.

PS  I am a new member of barnmice and this is my first post.  I ran into Ellen Ofstad's videos and I am interested in learning as much as I can about horse behavior and how to work with them in a positive way.

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on February 27, 2011 at 11:01am

I tried very hard to use some of these theories since I read about this body language thread....... I really wanted to believe that roundpenning wasn't necessary.   I started playing with my horse..... and I guess I ACCIDENTALLY gave him too much leeway or something into my space because when my trainer saw what I was doing here he had a cow...... Oliver was becoming increasingly dominant the more we played the games, but I didn't realize it...... now the difference is that my colt, (he's 5 now) is an ORPHAN and that is another whole issue... anyway, my trainer went back to roundpenning him last week and he is acting like a much more respectful horse..... all horses are not dominant and all horses might not need roundpenning but pushy horses will be run around by other horses... I've read it in alot of books about initial meetings between horses..... you might not have to keep it up daily and it might become a part of training that is necessary regularly once your horse respects you..... but since my horse is virtually an autistic horse due to his orphanism complex I have to be ready to roundpen him whenever he forgets that he is a horse.... actually, it's hard work and a little depressing..... I saw Cavalia last month, and am a long time proponent of liberty work with horses...... and until I learn a little better how to "send" my horse away.... the horse that stands like a brick wall, I don't think I can play these games anymore... :( 

 

Please remember I am only discussing MY horse... he is not usual, he is not normal and he is just a big project all the time......  

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on February 27, 2011 at 12:05pm

NOT necessary is what I meant.....

Permalink Reply by Sarah Siler on February 27, 2011 at 2:55pm

Ah Jennifer, I wish I could give you a hug right now.  Each horse is an individual, and you need to do what works for you and your horse.  I dare say you aren't going to become a 'predator' with your horse, you'll just become his leader.

 

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on February 28, 2011 at 11:00am

Me too Sarah cuz I would love a hug from a nice horse person...... instead of constant criticism about all the things I do wrong when i pretty much know that Oliver being an orphan isn't my doing... :)  Thank you very much for the kind words.

Permalink Reply by Sarah Siler on February 28, 2011 at 11:11am

Now don't be beating yourself up, you are trying with Oliver...and that's what really counts, you continue to try.  Oliver being an orphan isn't your doing, if you'd had your way I'm sure you'd have wanted him to have the normal foal life with his momma.  So you just keep that chin up and a smile on that face.  It's just my opinion, I don't know your trainer at all...what I do know, he seems to be a good one, keeping your safety, and Oliver's in the forefront of his thinking.  If I might offer one small piece of advice, and remember this is just my opinion, which is formed with no first hand observance...stick with what your trainer is telling you, don't 'scatter' your energy, your gut will tell you if something he tells you is 'wrong' for you and Oliver.  Then discuss it with him.

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on February 28, 2011 at 2:33pm

That is really good advice..... again, thank you.  I know Steve is right..... he doesn't want Oliver to be dangerous for his sake... he really loves the horse, he is a horse lover... he sees things I don't and he promises to keep me safe.... we are raising him together and I have to go with the program.... being "tough" on a horse is just not in my personality but I keep doing it anyway..... actually it is getting a little more challenging so I can only go so fast and so far to be safe... for this week Steve said, just push him in the same direction....... don't even worry about him going around you.. just keep claiming your real estate and push push, give him somewhere to go and make sure he moves..... Oliver is trotting out of my way and not coming up to me at all anymore..... it's kind of sad.... because we used to be buddy buddy but Steve said that is not gonna cut it...... ugh... I hate being the tough love mom.. but I know it is the right thing to do.... My elder gelding Toby, I've been doing my other work with and encouraging him to engage because hes much more shy.. having two horses with distinct different "issues" really is fascinating isn't it?    But as far as steve goes, he just does not hand out the compliments... but the whole time he's gone I try what he says so his advice doesn't go ignored... :)  Geez, I hope he gets happy someday, Virgo Men... HA!!

Permalink Reply by Sarah Siler on March 2, 2011 at 11:13am

If I may express an opinion, and please remember...it's just my opinion.  #1 Being 'tough' doesn't mean you are supposed to whack on him.  It means you ask for and expect respect.  Horses spell love, RESPECT, just look at herd dynamics.  Often a mare will get pretty 'tough' on her foal when it needs discipline.  Yet, that foal will always return to his mother for protection, comfort and companionship (not to mention a meal, lol).   So you go ahead and be tough on Oliver, like his mother would be, and you'll gain his respect, give it time, he'll come back to you because he will know he can always find safety and comfort with you.  I had to do that with Rip, I wasn't happy about it either, he's very sensitive and had been 'whacked' on a good bit previously, never given a chance to figure out what was being asked of him.  Now, after a year of me asking/showing him what I want, and giving him a chance to respond; not whacking him when the response wasn't what I had asked for, we have moved into the kind of relationship I think you want with Oliver.  When Rip got disrespectful of me, I got tough (didn't whack him) just let him know (probably with much the same technique as Steve is asking you to use) that the behavior was unacceptable to me. At first he was as you say Oliver is, BUT that changed, now he lets me love on him and loves on me back.  Hang in there girl, it's a long road, BUT SO WORTH THE JOURNEY. By the way, Rip is a Taurus, lol.

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on March 3, 2011 at 11:06am

Thank you for being my friend here Sarah..... it is a long journey, sometimes very lonely and confusing..... I really appreciate your comments and support.... and thank you for sharing your stories with me....

Permalink Reply by Sarah Siler on March 3, 2011 at 11:37am

No problem, JMO, that's what a site like this is for.  Supporting other horse owners/lovers without criticizing or confusing.  We all are individuals as are our horses, what works for some, won't work for others. There are dozens, maybe even hundreds or thousands of different techniques out there, we just need to find the one(s) that work for us; maybe I should say here that I would NEVER advocate using abuse or violence on a horse, there are MANY other ways to go and if a person thinks that is their last resort...then they need to sell the horse. I think the round pen is a very good tool, when used properly.  Not paying attention to the horse and easing up, when it signals it's understanding what you want, or that too much 'pressure' is being put on the horse and causing it's mind to go into 'flight/fear' mode is just plain wrong, again JMO. I doubt that this is the case with you, you are very much tuned in to Oliver.  The fact that you have two horses with very different personalities is really a good thing, it will help you 'stretch' as 'trainer'.

Permalink Reply by Ellen Ofstad on March 5, 2011 at 4:14am

How a mare is with her foal depends a lot on the age of the foal, and if it's a yearling it depends on if she has a new foal. It also depends on her personality, they are as different as we are. Some loves babies more than others...

There is a danger in trying to copy their behavior with each other in any case; we are not horses... and they know that of course. I don't belive that they regard us as such, nor that they think of us as "mom".

As for respect = love... Why do you belive This to be true, Sarah?

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