Join up... is it really a good way of training horses?

I just read the first reply to the thread:
http://www.barnmice.com/forum/topics/have-you-ever-had-or-dealt

and it said ...."If you don't know what join-up is... It is basically taking your horse into a round pen and chasing them away from you with a rope... Make sure
they are always at a run and change directions every 10 minutes or
so.... You will know your horse is ready to listen when they show on of
three signs of submission.... 1. Suddenly stopping and facing you 2.
Chewing 3. One ear is always pointed toward you... When your horse shows
you one of these signs, turn your back to them... They should walk-up
to you and either nudge you on the back or put there head over your
shoulder... At this point you need to give them a treat and a little
rest... Then walk away... They should follow...If they don't you need to
run them some more...
It is important to have lots of time to do this, you should not be rushing it... If it has been a long time and your horses is exhausted
and sweat, but still hasn't given in .... Give them a rest and try again
later in the day or the next day...
Also, if you don't have a round pen available to you... you can use a riding arena... You just need to take some boards or sheets of wood and
block off the corners, so that your horse cannot corner himself and make
it hard for you to chase him/her...
Hope this helps!!! If you need more information you can just google it or watch a video of it on youtube....

****** One important thing to know!!! YOU SHOULD NEVER HIT YOUR HORSE DURING THIS EXERCISE!! IT IS A NONE VIOLENT METHOD OF TRAINING, AND YOU
WILL LOSE YOUR HORSES RESPECT IF YOU HIT THEM!!"

I am not trying to be mean to the person that wrote this, I am just using her description for what join-up is, simply because I think that this is the way most people do it.

My question to you all is; do you think this is a good thing to do with horses? If so, why? if not, why?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Janice Stone on March 5, 2011 at 7:15pm

I have a miniature mule who lived his life outside with no humans. I rescued him, he was full of worms and had slipper foot.

I have tried that with him, he is so aftraid of humans that it just terrified him. I am using clicker training with treats to just be able to touch him. I still can't halter him. I have to gain his trust before his respect or he thinks I am going to hurt him. I have never hit him. I have used the Parelli catch me game with my other horses and it works great, but this little guy is really tough. Any ideas would be great.

Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on March 5, 2011 at 7:41pm

Whatever other good advice you get I recommend this book "The Body Language of Horses" by Tom Ainslee and Betty Ledbetter. There are lot available on amazon for under $10 US. Ms. Ledbetter worked successfully with a lot of horses who were absolutely terrified of humans, most from severe abuse. She describes sitting for an hour at a time, daily, sitting with her back to the horse listening to 101 Violins and doing macrame, then when her time was up she would throw a piece of watermelon rind over her shoulder and leave, never looking at the horse. She took as long as it took, but eventually all these horses approached her and she started the relationship.

One thing I like about her approach is that it sounds a lot safer than running the equine around a pen. That can come later when you have a relationship, though if you follow Ms. Ledbetter's method you may need no other system.

Permalink Reply by Janice Stone on March 5, 2011 at 8:17pm

Jackie,

Thank you so much, I am going to order the book. I am also going to try to spend the hour and do nothing. I have sat with him but I have looked at him and I can see now where even that is just too much presure for him.

Keeping him moving in a small space did nothing for our relationship and put us back a few steps. He is a sweet mule.

Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on March 5, 2011 at 8:34pm

Over the decades I have heard about the power of just being there and ignoring a horse. Once a lady had a new horse who turned out to be uncatchable. So the new owner started going out and petting and grooming every other horse in the pasture while always ignoring the new one until the she(the horse) became so jealous that she started insisting on getting attention too! Does not always work that way (jealousy), but lots of horses love watermelon rind and learn to think kindly of the person providing it.

Permalink Reply by Janice Stone on March 5, 2011 at 8:46pm

My donkeys are like that, as soon as I start to brush one, the others come and stand next to me to be brushed, My mule came over to see what we were doing at a distance of course, If I show him the brush he will run away. but he does want to stay closer and watch. but now when I give one of the donkeys a treat and click with the clicker, he will come for a treat, that is a major break through for him. If I try to approch him he will leave, so I let him come to me (not looking at him at first, now I can). If i see the pressure is too much I take a step or two back and he stops moving away. He has never been abused but I am sure people would think he was.

Yes what a great site, thank you.

Permalink Reply by Ellen Ofstad on March 6, 2011 at 5:15am

I totally agree with this advice. Great book (read it while sitting in a chair near him) and when you are done with that book you follow up with Mark Rashids books (best digested in his presence, too). Meanwhile, read the topic of the horses calming signals in this group. You will see that when you are sitting there, thinking that you are doing nothing, you are really communicating to him. Keeping your back to him and deliberately ignoring him IS an active communication, and the message reads that you are not a threat.
The parelli catching game tells him the opposite, but he has already told you that. Later, when he trusts you more you can start clicker training him, but for a while the calming signals will have the best effect.

Permalink Reply by Sarah Siler on March 6, 2011 at 9:43am

I once owned a gelding that was a real problem when trying to catch him, out in the pasture AND in his pen; he'd never been abused was a really nice ride, just was a 'pill' to catch. All the Parelli catch game did was make me sweat like a pig. I finally did the 'turn my back and ignore', with a piece of carrot thrown out to him after he approached. It took about a week for me to walk up to him with a halter.

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on March 6, 2011 at 11:15am

this is very interesting reading.... for the past 5 years I have watched, read, learned and talked to various people about their horses...... catching my horse is NOT an issue..... :) he is not afraid of anything at all...... lately, since his last roundpenning session which was very very hard on Oliver and probably exactly what he needed, he doesn't approach me anymore at all.... it sort of sucks..... but, our number one priority now regardless of anything else is to keep Oliver from thinking that he can run people down.... so the roundpenning which my trainer is a genius at is teaching Oliver to use his flight more than his fight instincts.... I tried to bring this up on another thread to get help but I think this is a topic for orphaned horses only maybe... a very lonely and not talked about subject.... he is not afraid of humans at all..... not in the least..... he eats tarps, he eats flags, hats, shirts, if you let him... if you are not ready willing and able to defend yourself against him, you will NOT earn his trust or his respect...... and if you pet him, love on him, feed him out of your hand or give him treats you are SUNK. I love Mark Rashid books by the way, good advice, and I've had the pleasure of going to his clinic and meeting him in person.

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on March 6, 2011 at 11:36am

The first time I turned my back to him, and started walking away, he ran up behind me and bit me on the shoulder.

Permalink Reply by Shirley on March 6, 2011 at 2:47pm

Hi Jenn, Things sure sound complicated for you and Oliver. I wonder about you two often. I hope that it is a matter of doing a couple of things right and then things will click for Oliver and you and then all will come together and you two find a great partnership. You have sure gotten alot of advice over the last many months just here on Barnmice. My conclusion is with all the many theories out there to experiment with each plan doesn't work for every horse. Just like with humans there are many reasons and many fixes for what ails us. The mind & emotional issues get so complicated. Best wishes to you in all your efforts to save one horse from his own confusion with the loss of his mum at too young an age. Looking forward to the day when you can post a picture of you and Oliver living "Happily Ever After!" For now, keep that picture in your own mind, especially when you are with Oliver.

I'm still dealing with my own issues of my brain malfunction when I get up in the saddle. Right now I am in one of the down times and very much looking forward to better days in that saddle. In our case I am the one confusing the horse rather then the horse confusing me. We are still doing wonderful from the ground & I am thrilled with that. I'm sure Cash senses the difference in me when I go to put my foot in that stirrup. I have a list of options to try too~~ Moving to different atmosphere, hypnosis, Esoteric (Energy Healing), Eagala are a few things I am considering. There is no logical reason for how far I have gone backwards.

I did get to go to the Road to the Horse for a long week-end and that was a very good time except I felt a little sorry for colts in such an un-natural setting with so much noise and confusion. It says alot for the horse that they are ever able to get calm enough to learn anything and yet it's amazing what they learn while they endure it all. They are such remarkable creatures!!! Truly awe inspiring!!!!

Permalink Reply by Jackie Cochran on March 6, 2011 at 3:48pm

Same thing happened to me with my first colt, and he was not an orphan.

Permalink Reply by Jennifer Lamm on March 7, 2011 at 12:11pm

You mean the turning and biting Jackie????? OmGosh for so long I didn't want to trust Oliver when I turned my back on him..... then, about 3 months ago I just stood really still and he came up to me and sniffed me all over but he did nibble the back of my shirt.... my relationship with him, (to me anyway, my perspective) is: can I trust him? not can he trust me... :)